This must be pretty straightforward, but I'll ask anyway. Recently, we'd been given the following examples, with regards to how the construction {noun 'ar}, is to be treated, i.e. singular or plural. Duj 'ar DIlegh ? bIQ 'ar wIlegh ? So, if the questioned object is countable, then we use a plural prefix. But does the opposite apply too ? If we have a questioned subject which is countable, then do we again use a plural prefix ? Should one say {yuQ Suv Duj 'ar} or {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar} ? I'm pretty sure it must be {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar}, but I'd like to make certain. ~ mayqel qunen'oS
It doesn’t look like anyone has answered this, so… I’ll give you an answer more interesting than most people want me to. We can’t be certain whether we should say {yuQ Suv Duj ‘ar} or {yup luSuv Duj ‘ar}. Your approach (including {lu-}) is reasonable and would be acceptable to those we know who speak the language. No one would correct you with any authority. If anyone had an authoritative answer, they would have given it by now. Eight days passed, and nobody replied. The issue has not come up frequently enough for there to be a precedent by which others could judge you as right or wrong. We might all come to agreement on the better way to state this and then discover some canon example proving us, if not wrong, then at least not always right. The most important thing here is: Ask this kind of question as you have asked it, and people will understand you well without cause to correct you. As an alternative approach, in the specific example you give, you could choose to omit {lu-} simply because omitting {lu-} when one obviously should use it is THE most common error for Klingon speakers. Canon examples are littered with it. So, if you SHOULD use {lu-} and you don’t, then it’s not much of a mistake, and if you SHOULDN’T use {lu-} and you don’t, it’s not a mistake at all, so by that logic, if you are hypersensitive to the potential of making an offensive mistake, omit {lu-} because, hey, if Okrand frequently forgets it, nobody is going to give YOU a hard time for forgetting it, and maybe you shouldn’t be using it in this example ANYWAY. We don’t know. So, you are more likely to be correct with {lu-} and you are safer from being offensively wrong without {lu-}. bISuDqang’a’? charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On Feb 10, 2020, at 8:04 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
This must be pretty straightforward, but I'll ask anyway.
Recently, we'd been given the following examples, with regards to how the construction {noun 'ar}, is to be treated, i.e. singular or plural.
Duj 'ar DIlegh ?
bIQ 'ar wIlegh ?
So, if the questioned object is countable, then we use a plural prefix.
But does the opposite apply too ?
If we have a questioned subject which is countable, then do we again use a plural prefix ?
Should one say {yuQ Suv Duj 'ar} or {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar} ?
I'm pretty sure it must be {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar}, but I'd like to make certain.
~ mayqel qunen'oS _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 at 18:17, Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> wrote:
On Feb 10, 2020, at 8:04 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
This must be pretty straightforward, but I'll ask anyway.
Recently, we'd been given the following examples, with regards to how the construction {noun 'ar}, is to be treated, i.e. singular or plural.
Duj 'ar DIlegh ?
bIQ 'ar wIlegh ?
So, if the questioned object is countable, then we use a plural prefix.
But does the opposite apply too ?
If we have a questioned subject which is countable, then do we again use a plural prefix ?
Should one say {yuQ Suv Duj 'ar} or {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar} ?
I'm pretty sure it must be {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar}, but I'd like to make certain.It doesn’t look like anyone has answered this, so… I’ll give you an answer more interesting than most people want me to.
We can’t be certain whether we should say {yuQ Suv Duj ‘ar} or {yup luSuv Duj ‘ar}. Your approach (including {lu-}) is reasonable and would be acceptable to those we know who speak the language. No one would correct you with any authority. If anyone had an authoritative answer, they would have given it by now. Eight days passed, and nobody replied.
I don't know about others but the reason *I* didn't reply to this is because I thought the answer is clear. Okrand was asked, "Which prefix should be used to refer to a questioned noun with {'ar}? How should I translate "How many ships do we see?" His answer was: --- begin quote --- Plural if the questioned noun can be singular or plural (it lacks a plural suffix) and the translation is “how many?”; singular if the questioned noun is something that can’t be counted and the translation is “how much?” So {Duj ’ar DIlegh?} “How many ships do we see?” {bIQ ’ar wIlegh?} “How much water do we see?” --- end quote --- He was asked to translate an example where the questioned noun *happens to be* in the object position, but his answer doesn't depend on this. It applies whether the noun is in the object or the subject position. The correct grammar is {yuQ luSuv Duj 'ar}. (However, I'm not sure ships can "fight" a planet, unless that planet is Unicron or the Death Star. For most normal planets, I'd use {HIv} instead. But knowing you, you probably *are* thinking of the Death Star.) -- De'vID
participants (4)
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Alan Anderson -
De'vID -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Will Martin