Which nouns make sense in a {[verb]meH [noun]} phrase? In a discussion in Facebook, someone asked to translate "Tell me why you did that" and I suggested {DamaghmeH meqlIj yIDel} "describe your reason for betraying him". Somebody corrected me that the noun in such a phrase should be some kind of tool, as in {pe'meH taj} and {ja'chuqmeH rojHom}. Is there any evidence for or against any of this? I feel that {maghmeH meq} sounds reasonable (no pun intended) but others don't. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher www.klingonwiki.net/En/Type9VerbSuffixes
On 8/30/2017 11:24 AM, Lieven wrote:
Which nouns make sense in a {[verb]meH [noun]} phrase?
In a discussion in Facebook, someone asked to translate "Tell me why you did that" and I suggested {DamaghmeH meqlIj yIDel} "describe your reason for betraying him".
Somebody corrected me that the noun in such a phrase should be some kind of tool, as in {pe'meH taj} and {ja'chuqmeH rojHom}.
Is there any evidence for or against any of this?
I feel that {maghmeH meq} sounds reasonable (no pun intended) but others don't.
Most of our examples seem to follow the pattern that purpose clauses attached to nouns are theoretically infinitive—they don't have subjects or prefixes—while purpose clauses attached to verbs are finite. So, *ja'chuqmeH rojHom*/truce to confer,/ but *maja'chuqmeH maghom*/we meet to confer./ I believe there are counterexamples, so take that with a grain of salt, but I think that's the basic idea. As for *maghmeH meq,* I don't like it because your motive doesn't have the purpose of betraying; your motive leads to betraying. In *ja'chuqmeH rojHom* the purpose of the truce is conferring. In *pe'meH taj,* the purpose of the knife is cutting. *-meH* on a noun describes the mission of that noun. The mission of your motive is not to betray; the /cause/ of your betrayal is your motive. I wouldn't translate /tell me why you did that!/ so literally. I'd just say *qatlh Data'pu'? */why did you do it?/ If the original action done were specified /(tell me why you betrayed him!),/ I'd use a better verb: *qatlh Damaghpu'?*/why did you betray him?/ If I absolutely had to include the /tell me!/ part, I'd just add a *HIja'!* at the end of it or, if I don't want it to be confused with /yes,/ I'd say *jIHvaD yIja'!* And if it truly, unfairly had to be a single sentence about telling, I'd say *jIHvaD maghpu'ghach meq yIja'*/tell me your betrayal motive!/ And if you insisted that, nononono, not just betrayal but betraying /him,/ I'd say go away, I'm done. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
I’m not quite sure I understand what Lieven’s FaceBook critic meant by “some kind of tool”, but here are a few purpose clauses that probably don’t – depending on how you analyze them - involve “purpose nouns”: Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH How much do you want for that? TKD cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS Give me a permit to sell dilithium, your honor. PK Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam It is a good day to die. TKW bIQapqu'meH tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS To really succeed, you must enjoy eating poison. TKW HIvmeH Duj So'lu' A ship cloaks in order to attack. TKW noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu' Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat. TKW vISeHmeH Hoch nuHmey Qay! [Transfer] All weapons to my control. (Clipped?) (ST5 NOTES) motlh ray' luSamlaHmeH De' Qatlh cha' tlhIngan Duj jIH'a' The main viewer on a Klingon ship is usually overlaid with a complex target acquisition grid. SP3 luchovmeH 'oy'naQmey lo' [Warriors] who test him with painstiks. S9 labmeH 'evnagh Se' lo' tlhIngan QumwI' A Klingon communicator sends a signal through subspace radio. S19 ngoQvam luchavmeH ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'. woQ luSuqmeH jIjpu' chaH romuluSngan'e' je. To this end, the sisters have acted against Gowron, going as far as to work with Romulan factions in order to gain power. S26 tlhutlhmeH HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS Drinking fake ale is better than drinking water. TKW jonlu'meH wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS Our Empire's highest bounty has been placed on his head. (ST5 notes) There are others I could post. --Voragh From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of SuStel On 8/30/2017 11:24 AM, Lieven wrote: Which nouns make sense in a {[verb]meH [noun]} phrase? In a discussion in Facebook, someone asked to translate "Tell me why you did that" and I suggested {DamaghmeH meqlIj yIDel} "describe your reason for betraying him". Somebody corrected me that the noun in such a phrase should be some kind of tool, as in {pe'meH taj} and {ja'chuqmeH rojHom}. Is there any evidence for or against any of this? I feel that {maghmeH meq} sounds reasonable (no pun intended) but others don't. Most of our examples seem to follow the pattern that purpose clauses attached to nouns are theoretically infinitive—they don't have subjects or prefixes—while purpose clauses attached to verbs are finite. So, ja'chuqmeH rojHom truce to confer, but maja'chuqmeH maghom we meet to confer. I believe there are counterexamples, so take that with a grain of salt, but I think that's the basic idea. As for maghmeH meq, I don't like it because your motive doesn't have the purpose of betraying; your motive leads to betraying. In ja'chuqmeH rojHom the purpose of the truce is conferring. In pe'meH taj, the purpose of the knife is cutting. -meH on a noun describes the mission of that noun. The mission of your motive is not to betray; the cause of your betrayal is your motive. I wouldn't translate tell me why you did that! so literally. I'd just say qatlh Data'pu'? why did you do it? If the original action done were specified (tell me why you betrayed him!), I'd use a better verb: qatlh Damaghpu'? why did you betray him? If I absolutely had to include the tell me! part, I'd just add a HIja'! at the end of it or, if I don't want it to be confused with yes, I'd say jIHvaD yIja'! And if it truly, unfairly had to be a single sentence about telling, I'd say jIHvaD maghpu'ghach meq yIja' tell me your betrayal motive! And if you insisted that, nononono, not just betrayal but betraying him, I'd say go away, I'm done. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 30.08.2017 um 20:32 schrieb Steven Boozer:
I’m not quite sure I understand what Lieven’s FaceBook critic meant by “some kind of tool”, but here are a few purpose clauses that probably don’t – depending on how you analyze them - involve “purpose nouns”:
Very often, there are two ways to interpet such constructions, for instance
*Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH*
I'm sure this is not {DIlmeH Huch} but a separate phrase {Dochvetlh DIlmeH} + {Huch 'ar DaneH} I'll add some comma to these example to show that most are not -meH-nound-phrases:
*cha'puj vIngevmeH, chaw' HInobneS * *Heghlu'meH, QaQ jajvam* *bIQapqu'meH, tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS* *HIvmeH Duj So'lu'* A ship cloaks in order to attack. TKW
But not "The hiding ship (HIvmeH Duj) is cloaked"
*vISeHmeH, Hoch nuHmey Qay! * *motlh ray' luSamlaHmeH, De' Qatlh cha' tlhIngan Duj jIH'a' * *luchovmeH, 'oy'naQmey lo' * *labmeH, 'evnagh Se' lo' tlhIngan QumwI' * *ngoQvam luchavmeH, ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'*. *woQ luSuqmeH, jIjpu' chaH romuluSngan'e' je*. *tlhutlhmeH, HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS* *jonlu'meH, wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS*
There are others I could post.
After finishing, I noticed that none of these phrases shows {verb-meH noun} phrases. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
On Aug 30, 2017 23:09, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote: Am 30.08.2017 um 20:32 schrieb Steven Boozer:
I’m not quite sure I understand what Lieven’s FaceBook critic meant by “some kind of tool”, but here are a few purpose clauses that probably don’t – depending on how you analyze them - involve “purpose nouns”:
I'm not sure what Lieven means by "tool" since a {rojHom} isn't a tool. There are plenty of purpose clauses modifying nouns which aren't tools. Very often, there are two ways to interpet such constructions, for instance *Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH*
I'm sure this is not {DIlmeH Huch} but a separate phrase {Dochvetlh DIlmeH} + {Huch 'ar DaneH} Really? I think this is {[Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch] 'ar DaneH?} and not *{Dochvetlh DIlmeH, Huch 'ar DaneH?}, because in the latter case, I'd expect {Dochvetlh vIDIlmeH, Huch 'ar DaneH?} -- De'vID
Am 31.08.2017 um 06:11 schrieb De'vID:
I'm not sure what Lieven means by "tool" since a {rojHom} isn't a tool. There are plenty of purpose clauses modifying nouns which aren't tools.
It's maybe not a tool you can grab with your hand, but the point was that in the phrase {ja'chuqmeH rojHom}, the {rojHom} has a purpose. Its "purpose" is to make talking possible. In {DIlmeH Huch} the "purpose" of the money is to pay. In {pe'meH taj} the "purpose" of the knife is to cut. When I say {SuvmeH meq} "reason for fighting", the {meq} is not the "purpose" for fighting. That's what they told me. I'm still in doubt if I'm just misusing this construction, taking it too literally.
Really? I think this is {[Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch] 'ar DaneH?} and not *{Dochvetlh DIlmeH, Huch 'ar DaneH?}, because in the latter case, I'd expect {Dochvetlh vIDIlmeH, Huch 'ar DaneH?}
Good point. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
participants (4)
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De'vID -
Lieven -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel