Because it doesn't tell us how to use {bIr}, Lieven left out the punchline from that KGT (p.105) reference: If it is desirable to close the window, the Klingon will simply say, {Qorwagh yISoQmoH} ("Close the window!"). -- Voragh ------------------------------Original Message------------------------------ From: tlhIngan-Hol on behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2022 12:21 AM Am 12.09.2022 um 20:07 schrieb Will Martin:

2. Great question. So far as I know {jIbIr} means “I’m cold,” synonymous to “I feel cold”, and if you want to say “My body is cold”, you’d say {bIr porghwIj.}

There is some canon for this, but the answer is still not so clear: When a Federation citizen on Earth says "It's rather chilly in this room," he or she may really mean "I am uncomfortably cold and want somebody to close the window." The Klingon sentence {pa'vamDaq jIbIr} means "I am cold in this room" ({pa'vamDaq,} "in this room"; {jIbIr,} "I am cold") – nothing more, nothing less. (KGT, p. 105) I'm not sure if this leaves room for interpretation. Maybe we have more canon examples on the usage of {bIr}.

Some thoughts, but no conclusions: Instead of an apposition - which may be difficult for the Klingon reader to figure out - is to use a parenthetical comment instead: eg. {jupwI'vaD (wo'rIv)} "to my friend Worf". We still don't know whether you need to tag each noun with {-vaD} but it would be understood. Another pattern is that of ranks used with names, which can be considered either as either "tagging" (i.e. with the rank) or apposition (e.g. "Worf, the lieutenant"). We have examples of the Type 5 suffix {-'e'} placed on the second noun: yaS wa'DIch ghaH qImlaq la''e' Commander K'mlak is first officer. (KGT) ya ghaH qImlaq Sogh'e' Lieutenant K'mlak is the tactical officer. (KGT) Qugh la'vaD QIn pav. [Urgent message for Commander Kruge.] (ST3 DVD case) This may hold true for the other Type 5 noun suffixes {-Daq}, [-mo'], {-vaD}, and {-vo'}. Then again, it may not; {-'e'} is kind of a special case. charghwI' suggested {*Berlin* vengDaq} for “in the city of Berlin” or "in Berlin city". We have examples of this pattern translated both ways: {qebeq veng} "Quebec City" [qepHom 2018] and {qamchIy veng ghoSlI' qotar} "Kotar heads for the city of Qam-Chee" [PB]. Although neither example has any suffixes, that's how I would do it until Maltz tells us otherwise. {BERLIN veng} might be considered a noun + noun proper name and thus an exception from the Klingon Rules of Apposition, whatever they turn out to be. 25 years ago we saw something vaguely similar: qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. (untranslated; Okrand to SuStel on msn.onstage... 11/1996) SuStel commented on the tlhIngan-hol List (12/18/1996): "Actually, in answering my letter about {qep'a' wejDIch}, Marc Okrand used the phrase {qep'a' wejDIchDaq}. Now, it could be considered just a name, but it may also be possible that noun suffixes can go to the ordinal number." We know that they do go on cardinal numbers: e.g. {nImbuS wejDaq 'ejDo' 'entepray' ngeHlu'pu'} [ST5] and {Qo'noS wa'Daq baHta' ['entepray']} [ST6]. --Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of luis.chaparro@web.de Thank you charghwI', Lieven and Voragh for your answers! Regarding appositions I think I will avoid them and recast or just take the very good advice of splitting it into two or more sentences, until we have a canonical explanation about how they work in Klingon. _______________________________________________ From Luis' earlier post: 1. How could I say something like *To my friend Worf* in Klingon? I know there are no stated rules about appositions in Klingon, so what would be the best guess? I personally would add the suffix to both nouns: *jupwI'vaD wo'rIvvaD*, but I don't know if it works and if it would work in other cases (for example, if we wanted to say *In the city of Berlin*: twice *-Daq*?).

I've never seen it but IIRC there were several lines in Klingon on the back of a special anniversary edition of the Star Trek III DVD case: Qugh la'vaD QIn pav. [Urgent message for Commander Kruge.] qa'vam jan SeH DIvI'. [The Federation controls the Genesis Device.] qa'vam yuQ Quv DaghojmeH Duyma'vaD yIjatlh. [To learn the Genesis Planet's coordinates, speak to our agent.] qa'vam jan yISuq. [Acquire the Genesis Device!] potlhbe' to'. [Tactics aren't important.] (i.e. Do it anyway you can; we don't care how!) The English translations are bracketed in my notes, so they may have not been printed on the case. Since it's a Paramount version of the movie I've always assumed that Okrand provided the Klingon. Does anyone know or have this DVD to check? Now that I know what to look for, I found other examples WRT geographical names of rivers : ghIq SIqralDaq molor HoS waw' lupawmeH bIQtIq HeH juS SuvwI' ghom The band of warriors then went Past the shore to the river Skral, To Molor's seat of power. (PB) 'Iw bIQtIqDaq bIlengjaj May you travel the River of Blood! (PK) 'Iw bIQtIqDaq jIjaH I travel the River of Blood (TKW; cf. TNG "The Icarus Factor")W 'Iw bIQtIqvo' toS SuvwI' yoH puH QaDDaq paw The fearless warrior climbs out of the blood onto dry land. (PB) -- Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: luis.chaparro@web.de Thank you, Voragh, for the excellent information!

Qugh la'vaD QIn pav. [Urgent message for Commander Kruge.] (ST3 DVD case)

This may hold true for the other Type 5 noun suffixes {-Daq}, [-mo'], {-vaD}, and {-vo'}. Then again, it may not; {-'e'} is kind of a special case.

Well, *Qugh la'vaD QIn pav* is an example with *-vaD* :-) Is it considered canon?

charghwI' suggested {*Berlin* vengDaq} for “in the city of Berlin” or "in Berlin city". We have examples of this pattern translated both ways: {qebeq veng} "Quebec City" [qepHom 2018] and {qamchIy veng ghoSlI' qotar} "Kotar heads for the city of Qam-Chee" [PB]. Although neither example has any suffixes, that's how I would do it until Maltz tells us otherwise.

I've found a similar example from the *paq'batlh* with a type 5 suffix: SIqral bIQtIqDaq joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu’ qem qeylIS bIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH *SIqral bIQtIqDaq*, *to the river Skral*. If Klingons consider titles and names of regions, rivers etc. to be in apposition, is another question :-) _______________________________________________

Lieven, thanks for providing that link. (Is there *anything* that's not in the Klingon Language Wiki?!) From your page: "This edition of the DVD from Star Trek III: The Search for Spock contains a 21-minute long video with Marc Okrand, in which he explains the creation of the Klingon language." Since Okrand was involved in the production of the DVD, that answers Luis's and my question: the Klingon is canon, the translations are not. Voragh ------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: On Behalf Of Lieven L. Litaer Am 16.09.2022 um 16:29 schrieb Steven Boozer:

I've never seen it but IIRC there were several lines in Klingon on the back of a special anniversary edition of the Star Trek III DVD case: [...] The English translations are bracketed in my notes, so they may have not been printed on the case. Since it's a Paramount version of the movie I've always assumed that Okrand provided the Klingon. Does anyone know or have this DVD to check?

There is an image of the DVD on the Klingon Language Wiki. It's of poor quality, but enough to see that an English translation was not provided. http://klingon.wiki/En/SpecialCollectorsEdition

Thank you again, Voragh, Lieven and ghunchu'wI' for your help!   ghunchu'wI':  

The example that I think is most compelling comes from Skybox SP1 Qo'noS wo' Empire of Kronos:

...juHqo' Qo'noSvo' loghDaq lengtaHvIS tlhInganpu'... ...During the...[travel] of the Klingon people from their homeworld of Kronos into space...

This apparent apposition puts the Type 5 noun suffix on only the final noun. It's not a simple noun-noun construction; if it were, I would have expected it to be in the other order.

This is indeed a very good example. There are also the examples with names of ships, like: *DIvI' 'ejDo' 'entepray'Daq Dajollu'* - /Get beamed aboard the USS Enterprise./ (/Star Trek Experience/) *qIvo'rIt toQDuj 'oH tlhIngan wo' Duj pagh'e'* - /The Imperial Klingon Vessel Pagh is a K'Vort-class Bird-of-Prey./ (/SkyBox#7/) By the way, why is in the title of this card also the suffix *-'e' *? Is this an error or am I missing something? So, leaving apart the question about what an apposition is in Klingon, it seems that type 5 suffixes always come on the last noun (?).