Klingon Word of the Day: joH
Klingon Word of the Day for Friday, September 10, 2021 Klingon word: joH Part of speech: noun Definition: lord Source: TKD This Klingon Word of the Day is brought to you by qurgh (qurgh@kli.org).
Klingon word: joH Part of speech: noun Definition: lord Source: TKD _______________________________________________ joHwI'! My lord! ST3 luq joHwI' lu' joHwI' Yes, my Lord. KGT lu joHwI' My Lord falls from power. KGT DaH nuq ta'pu' Day joH What has Lady Di done now? RTb vanchuq luqara' joH qeylIS je Lady Lukara and Kahless, they said their goodbyes (PB 184-85) (TKD 58): Names may be used in direct address (that is, calling somebody by name) at the beginning or end of the sentence. Other words used in direct address (such as {qaH} sir, {joHwI'} my lord) are used similarly. (KGT 40f, 198): The leader of a house is afforded the title {joH}, usually translated as Lord. This title is also used to refer to his wife, translated as Lady. If the title is used along with the name, one puts the name first, as is the case with all titles: {Qugh joH} (Lord Kruge), {ghIrIlqa' joH} (Lady Grilka). When addressing the head of a house, a member of a lower class may use either the name plus {joH} or else {joH} plus {-wI'} [...] {joHwI'} (my Lord, my Lady). This title also has an alternate form, {jaw}, which is used from time to time with no known difference in meaning or connotation, though {joH} is heard far more frequently. HISlaH jawwI' I have, my lord. ST3 Qapla' jawwI' bangwI' je Success my lord and my love. ST3 FYI: Lursa and B'Etor are addressed as {joHwI'} and "Mistress" by their crew in ST:Generations. (TKD 25): It is grammatically correct to use the regular possessive suffixes with nouns referring to beings capable of speech (as in {puqlIj} "your child"), but such constructions are considered derogatory; {joHwIj} for "my lord" borders on taboo. (KGT 190): Addressing my Lord or my Lady as {joHwIj} rather than {joHwI'} is insulting indeed, since it implies that my Lord or my Lady is a lower order of being. Similarly, a group of heads of households would probably not appreciate being referred to as {joHDu'}, since that would be the appropriate way to say Lords or Ladies only if they were body parts. The only thing worse would be combining mispronunciation with grammatical blundering, such as by saying {joQDu'wIj} (my ribs) ... when {joHpu'wI'} (my Lords, my Ladies) is intended. Mistakes of this kind are simply not tolerated and there are no recorded instances of anyone living long enough to repeat the offense. (KLS): The {betleH} wielded by the lord of a great house is called an Honor Blade and is considered the repository of the heart and soul of his or her entire clan. nuq DalaD, joHwI'? mu', mu', mu'. What do you read, my lord? Words, words, words. (NON-CANON: TKH, Hamlet II,2) -- Voragh, Ca'Non Master of the Klingons Please contribute relevant vocabulary from the last year or two. I’ve fallen behind in updating my files and adding cross-references for related words.
Normally, I wouldn't waste my time with this crap, but since I've eaten so much I cannot move, I *will* waste my time until I've begun to feel better. So.. Seemingly/apparently, in direct address you can't use the word {joH} unless you either say {ghawran joH} or {joHwI'}. So, let's say you see a lord ready to cross the street and be run over by a bus.. You don't remember his name, and he isn't your lord either.. According to the wisdom of the klingon language, you can't say {joH, yIyItchoHQo'}. Oh, no.. That's wrong.. On the other hand, you can't say {joHwI', yIyItchoHQo'} because he isn't your lord either. So, in that case, the klingon language says "screw him"; unless you know his name, or unless he's *your* lord, let him go under the bus. Who cares? After all, he isn't *your* lord, right? There you go! That's the way of the warrior! ~ Dana'an nolite te bastardes carborundorum
On 9/11/2021 9:22 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Seemingly/apparently, in direct address you can't use the word {joH} unless you either say {ghawran joH} or {joHwI'}.
So, let's say you see a lord ready to cross the street and be run over by a bus.. You don't remember his name, and he isn't your lord either..
According to the wisdom of the klingon language, you can't say {joH, yIyItchoHQo'}. Oh, no.. That's wrong..
Hang on. What wisdom are you referring to? I don't remember seeing anything that said *joH* without the *-wI'* can't be used in direct address all by itself. Did I miss something? Now, if I /did/ miss something, what's the big deal? Suppose you see someone who isn't a lord cross the street and be run over by a bus. Not only do you not remember his name, you also can't call him *joH* because he isn't one. So what's the problem? *'eH! mev!* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
SuStel:
I don't remember seeing anything that said joH without the -wI' can't be used in direct address all by itself
Indeed, there's no rule that says that in direct address, {joH} should always be used with a possessive suffix. But I noticed that in the examples posted by voragh, wherever there's direct address, we have {joHwI'} instead of just {joH}. If there's a rule at work here, then it's a ridiculous one. There are times one doesn't need, nor is it proper to say {joHwI'}. I can understand rules which's purpose is to make understanding clearer. But I'm irritated (and that's an understatement) from rules with no apparent purpose. A language is supposed to be a tool to help you express yourself. ~ Dana'an don't let the bastards grind you down
jIH:
There are times one doesn't need, nor is it proper to say {joHwI'}.
Let alone the fact, that even if it *is* your lord the one you're talking to, saying continuously {joHwI'} gives off a feeling of ass-kissing. I don't know if in the examples posted by voragh, the rationale behind the {joHwI'} is to show respect, but if this is indeed the case, then again this would be a wrong way to show respect. You can both respect someone, *and* not kiss his ass. ~ Dana'an
On 9/11/2021 10:30 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SuStel:
I don't remember seeing anything that said joH without the -wI' can't be used in direct address all by itself
Indeed, there's no rule that says that in direct address, {joH} should always be used with a possessive suffix.
But I noticed that in the examples posted by voragh, wherever there's direct address, we have {joHwI'} instead of just {joH}.
If there's a rule at work here, then it's a ridiculous one. There are times one doesn't need, nor is it proper to say {joHwI'}.
I can understand rules which's purpose is to make understanding clearer. But I'm irritated (and that's an understatement) from rules with no apparent purpose.
But there's no such rule. You just haven't seen an example that does it. That doesn't mean you can't say it. I think you're looking for a problem where none exists. If you want to say *joH* in direct address, go ahead. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
DIS wa’ SanID Hutvatlh SochmaH chorgh yaHwIjDaq wab’a’ vIQoy. wab’a’ Hal vInej. yaHwIj ‘emDaq naghmey lo’taHvIS qachHom’e' chenmoHlu’pu'bogh muppu’ puH Duj. Dujvo’ yIt ‘e’ nID nuv, ‘ach pum. Qamqa’ ‘e’ nID, ‘ej jIjatlh, <<SoH, yIQamQo’! yIba’. maja'chuq.>> qatlh vIra’pu’? ‘uSDaj ghorpu’ba’ mupqu’ghach. yIt ‘e’ nIDDI’, tlhoS jI’em. chach Duj vIloS. QamQo’qa'meH vIyutnIS. wa’ mIn pe’ je. ghaytanHa’ leghqa’laH mInvetlh. chechchu’ba’. jItlhob. <<qatlh naDev SoH?>> jang. <<Suvchuq parmaqqay jIH je. jIQuchHa’choH. jItlhutlh. nom jISeD.>> yInDaj vuvHa’pu’. QIpchu’. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Sep 11, 2021, at 12:52 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/11/2021 10:30 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
SuStel:
I don't remember seeing anything that said joH without the -wI' can't be used in direct address all by itself
Indeed, there's no rule that says that in direct address, {joH} should always be used with a possessive suffix.
But I noticed that in the examples posted by voragh, wherever there's direct address, we have {joHwI'} instead of just {joH}.
If there's a rule at work here, then it's a ridiculous one. There are times one doesn't need, nor is it proper to say {joHwI'}.
I can understand rules which's purpose is to make understanding clearer. But I'm irritated (and that's an understatement) from rules with no apparent purpose. But there's no such rule. You just haven't seen an example that does it. That doesn't mean you can't say it.
I think you're looking for a problem where none exists. If you want to say joH in direct address, go ahead.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 15:35, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/11/2021 9:22 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Seemingly/apparently, in direct address you can't use the word {joH} unless you either say {ghawran joH} or {joHwI'}.
So, let's say you see a lord ready to cross the street and be run over by a bus.. You don't remember his name, and he isn't your lord either..
According to the wisdom of the klingon language, you can't say {joH, yIyItchoHQo'}. Oh, no.. That's wrong..
Hang on. What wisdom are you referring to? I don't remember seeing anything that said *joH* without the *-wI'* can't be used in direct address all by itself. Did I miss something?
I think mayqel may have misunderstood this sentence:
When addressing the head of a house, a member of a lower class may use either the name plus {joH} or else {joH} plus {-wI'} [...] {joHwI'} (my Lord, my Lady).
It says "the head of *a* house", not "the head of *one's own* house". It's perfectly fine to say {joHwI'} in direct address to a head of a Klingon House which isn't one's own. The use of the possessive {-wI'} here seems to indicate "a lord/lady relative to me", "a person in a higher social position relative to me", and not necessarily "the lord/lady of my house". -- De'vID
Yep. Every lord is my lord when I greet him in the presence of his buff, well-armed guards. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Sep 12, 2021, at 3:27 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 15:35, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: On 9/11/2021 9:22 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Seemingly/apparently, in direct address you can't use the word {joH} unless you either say {ghawran joH} or {joHwI'}.
So, let's say you see a lord ready to cross the street and be run over by a bus.. You don't remember his name, and he isn't your lord either..
According to the wisdom of the klingon language, you can't say {joH, yIyItchoHQo'}. Oh, no.. That's wrong.. Hang on. What wisdom are you referring to? I don't remember seeing anything that said joH without the -wI' can't be used in direct address all by itself. Did I miss something?
I think mayqel may have misunderstood this sentence:
When addressing the head of a house, a member of a lower class may use either the name plus {joH} or else {joH} plus {-wI'} [...] {joHwI'} (my Lord, my Lady).
It says "the head of *a* house", not "the head of *one's own* house". It's perfectly fine to say {joHwI'} in direct address to a head of a Klingon House which isn't one's own. The use of the possessive {-wI'} here seems to indicate "a lord/lady relative to me", "a person in a higher social position relative to me", and not necessarily "the lord/lady of my house".
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Sep 11, 2021, at 9:22 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
According to the wisdom of the klingon language, you can't say {joH, yIyItchoHQo'}. Oh, no.. That's wrong..
Why do you think that?
On the other hand, you can't say {joHwI', yIyItchoHQo'} because he isn't your lord either.
That’s not true. In Star Trek III, Saavik addressed Kruge as “my lord”, and she certainly wasn’t a member of his house. (I think Okrand missed an opportunity to call back to that usage in Into Darkness. Instead of inventing the verb jIyI' I speak respectfully to fit Zoe Saldana’s lip movements, he might have had her say joHwI' and come close enough.) — ghunchu'wI'
participants (7)
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De'vID -
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh -
Klingon Word of the Day -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin