Instinct yes, but of what kind ?
We have {Duj} for "instinct/instinct". There are two kinds of "instinct": 1. The "gut feeling"; e.g. "my instincts tell me ancient cats are expensive" 2. The actual instinct; e.g. survival instinct, reproductive instinct, etc So, which of the two is {Duj} ? And if you say the second, then I guess it would be ok to write {ngaghmeH Duj} for "reproductive instinct", right ? Or would this mean "ship in order to have babies" ? Also, if you say the second, then I guess it would be also ok to write {nga'chuqmeH Duj} for "sexual instinct", right ? Or would this mean "ship for the purpose of f*** our brains out" ? ~ m. qunen'oS ghe''orDaq, 'InSepDu' remtaH latlh Hol luchenmoHlu'pu'bogh
Just a clarification: I know that {ngagh} means "mate with" instead of "to reproduce", but since I usually hear this word in documentaries, with regards to animals replicating themselves, I always had this in mind to mean "sex for the purpose of making babies", instead of "sex for fun with lurSa' and be'etor". maj. DaH jIleSlaH.. ~ m. qunen'oS veQna' bIH Hoch latlh Holmey'e' luchenmoHlu'pu'bogh
On Fri, May 10, 2019, 11:46 mayqel qunen'oS, <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
We have {Duj} for "instinct/instinct".
There are two kinds of "instinct":
1. The "gut feeling"; e.g. "my instincts tell me ancient cats are expensive" 2. The actual instinct; e.g. survival instinct, reproductive instinct, etc
So, which of the two is {Duj} ?
Duj tIvoqtaH. -- De'vID
From: mayqel qunen'oS
We have {Duj} for "instinct/instinct". There are two kinds of "instinct":
1. The "gut feeling"; e.g. "my instincts tell me ancient cats are expensive" 2. The actual instinct; e.g. survival instinct, reproductive instinct, etc
So, which of the two is {Duj} ?
Generally number 1, in the sense of one's intuition or gut feeling. Notice that the gloss was "instincts" - plural not singular - which is how it's used in English. Here is Okrand on instincts: (TKW 27): The Klingon word for instincts is {Duj}, and it is grammatically correct to treat it as singular (a bundle or collection of instincts) or plural (individual instincts). vaj Duj chIj "navigate a warrior ship" KGT (KGT 113-115): This is a way to say have strength of character. This sense clearly came about because of the existence in Klingon of two words pronounced {Duj}, one meaning ship, vessel, the other meaning instincts. If {Duj} is taken in its 'ship' sense, then {vaj Duj} means warrior ship, something that is certainly appropriate to navigate ({chIj}). On the other hand, if {Duj} is taken to mean instincts, then {vaj Duj} means warrior instincts and the phrase {vaj Duj chIj} (navigate warrior instincts) makes no sense unless interpreted idiomatically. <...> It is noteworthy that in this idiom the word for warrior is not the frequently heard {SuvwI'}, which would denote an individual warrior, but rather is {vaj}, which refers to the whole idea of being a warrior. Thus, when {Duj} is taken to mean instincts, {vaj Duj} refers to the instincts associated with being a warrior or the instincts needed for combat; {SuvwI' Duj} would mean the instincts of a specific warrior. Duj tIvoqtaH Always trust your instincts. TKD DujlIj yIvoq Trust your instincts. TKW Although note the phrase "by instinct" Okrand translated in the paq'batlh: QaQ qeylIS Duj ghe'tor 'elmeH yapbe' may' 'e' Sovchu' Kahless knows by instinct A fight will not suffice To enter the land of the dead. PB Literally "Kahless's instincts are good..." All that being said, I would certainly understand *{taHmeH Duj / yInmeH Duj} or *{nga'chuqmeH Duj / ngaghmeH Duj}. Whether that's the way Maltz would say it is another matter... -- Voragh
I’m not sure there’s actually much of a difference between 1 and 2. We can differentiate between instinct and non-instinct to a degree (with a healthy grey area between instinct, intuition, and cognition) because we are sapient, and have higher cognitive functioning. Thus we have more than out instinctual and conditioned responses, whereas non-sapient animals have varying levels of instinct and response but less cognitive depth they can apply to it. —jevreH Sent from my iPhone
On May 10, 2019, at 05:46, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
We have {Duj} for "instinct/instinct".
There are two kinds of "instinct":
1. The "gut feeling"; e.g. "my instincts tell me ancient cats are expensive" 2. The actual instinct; e.g. survival instinct, reproductive instinct, etc
So, which of the two is {Duj} ?
And if you say the second, then I guess it would be ok to write {ngaghmeH Duj} for "reproductive instinct", right ? Or would this mean "ship in order to have babies" ?
Also, if you say the second, then I guess it would be also ok to write {nga'chuqmeH Duj} for "sexual instinct", right ? Or would this mean "ship for the purpose of f*** our brains out" ?
~ m. qunen'oS ghe''orDaq, 'InSepDu' remtaH latlh Hol luchenmoHlu'pu'bogh _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
jevreH:
We can differentiate between instinct and non-instinct to a degree (with a healthy grey area between instinct, intuition, and cognition) because we are sapient, and have higher cognitive functioning.
I totally agree with jevreH. Totally. The fact that we're self-aware and able of higher cognitive functions, doesn't change the fact that an instict is a gut feeling, an inner drive, a deeper need, which guides/influences our behavior. I'm in the market place of Qo'noS; I stand before of a seller who tries to make me buy an ancient cat. I suspect something's wrong, because that cat is inexpensive. It's my instinct, telling me something's wrong. I leave that seller, and in a dark alley, I realize two klingons armed with knives are following me. It's the survival instinct, telling me to fight or flight. I escape the romulans, and I see lurSa' and be'etor; it's the sexual instinct which kicks in. The fact that as humans, we're able to discern differences between the "mild" instinct that the seller is trying to deceive us, and the more "primal" instincts of survival/sex/whatever, doesn't change the fact that in all cases we talk about an instinct, which merely manifests differently, depending on the occasion. With this being said, I'll be using {Duj} with regards, to all kinds of instincts. Unless of course, someone can add to this discussion arguments, which could convince me otherwise. But the fact that 'oqranD, wrote {Duj tIvoqtaH}, doesn't narrow down the context of {Duj}. We can't expect 'oqranD, to have used every word in every possible way. Unless he has said "don't use a word that way", then I see no reason to limit ourselves. ~ m. qunen'oS tera' joH, qo' joHna', qavan
My instincts are different. See below. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
On May 11, 2019, at 5:53 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
jevreH:
We can differentiate between instinct and non-instinct to a degree (with a healthy grey area between instinct, intuition, and cognition) because we are sapient, and have higher cognitive functioning.
I totally agree with jevreH. Totally.
I agree less, simply because I don’t presume that “lower” animals are less intelligent based on my ignorance of any means of communicating with them. A common feature of Deaf culture is that they have to put up with hearing people who presume that Deaf people are stupid because they don’t understand spoken English. While there is limited evidence to the contrary, it’s quite possible that crows are smarter than you, and you just don’t know it. The line between sincere superiority and unwarranted arrogance tends to be invisible to those exhibiting either.
I'm in the market place of Qo'noS; I stand before of a seller who tries to make me buy an ancient cat. I suspect something's wrong, because that cat is inexpensive. It's my instinct, telling me something's wrong.
I leave that seller, and in a dark alley, I realize two klingons armed with knives are following me. It's the survival instinct, telling me to fight or flight.
My instinct would be simply to smile. Awww. They want to play. Why consider running? Bring it.
I escape the romulans, and I see lurSa' and be'etor; it's the sexual instinct which kicks in.
lurSa’ and be’etor? That’s when my survival instinct would kick in. I would proceed VERY CAREFULLY, scanning the area for safe exits, while following diplomatic protocols to avoid drawing their attention, or giving them a reason to attack. Be aware of where my weapons are without making any telling gestures to let THEM know where my weapons are. I mean, it’s nice that they are female and all, but there are two of them, and either one is dangerous alone. Together? Two Klingon guards with knives? Playground roughhousing. LurSa’ and be’etor? Chills down the spine. Fight or flight. Preferably, flight. Live to fight another day. The mind’s soundtrack is going “Ah-oooo-gah! Ah-oooo-gah! Battle stations! Prepare to dive!" ...
With this being said, I'll be using {Duj} with regards, to all kinds of instincts.
Unless of course, someone can add to this discussion arguments, which could convince me otherwise.
I’m not all that sure that sexual instinct is something anyone should ever trust. How many lives have been ruined because somebody trusted their sexual instinct? Sexual instinct too often chooses your life partner based on how much you like his or her hair length, color, or straightness/curliness, or eye color, or the shape of his or her chest. You can spend years paying for a couple of hours of activity that seemed like a good idea at the time, but gee, there are all these other hours of the day when this person is not pleasant to be around, and is not helpful or considerate or particularly interested in your well being. I honestly believe that choosing a mate should be a mental task of the highest cognitive order. Tell your animal within to keep its opinion to itself. You really should think this one through, thoroughly. Make sure you choose someone you like to spend time with all those hours you are NOT having sex. Because you WILL be spending MOST of your hours with this person NOT having sex. Odds are far greater that you can figure out how to enjoy sex with someone you like a lot, than that you can figure out how to make all of your critical life decisions with someone whose every glance takes your breath away.
But the fact that 'oqranD, wrote {Duj tIvoqtaH}, doesn't narrow down the context of {Duj}. We can't expect 'oqranD, to have used every word in every possible way.
Unless he has said "don't use a word that way", then I see no reason to limit ourselves.
This is where I believe that language bends to the quality of functionality between people trying to communicate. Most of the time, I agree with your statement, but the simple truth is that one can always grab for a rarely used branch of meaning for a word in English when translating into Klingon and lose the person trying to follow your message. Just because you can put your interpretation of an idea into Klingon doesn’t mean that the person you are speaking or writing to can understand what you were trying to say. To write or speak well, you need to be able to put an idea into Klingon and get that meaning out of the resultant message without needing to know that thing you were thinking of when you used a word in an unusual way. So, I do see reasons to limit ourselves. I’m not saying this as an extreme statement of limitation. I’m saying it as a reaction against extreme loss of boundaries. Most of the time you are right, but this declaration of yours can go too far. It is quite possible to use words in ways Okrand never warned us not to, and in doing so, fail miserably to communicate.
~ m. qunen'oS tera' joH, qo' joHna', qavan _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (5)
-
De'vID -
Jeffrey Clark -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
Will Martin