Hi, I just started a page in the Klingon.wiki listing metaphorically used words and also metonyms. Okrand did not name them as such, and I noticed ther are others that fit in such alist which were not explicitally label as such, like {Soj} meaning "matter, affair" instead of "food". Then I noticed that many of the idioms use (or are) metaphors, so it kind of overlaps. Now come the questions... 1. Did anyone ever make such a compilation already? 2. Would you understand and/or accept words taken from idioms in a different context, like if I use {Ha'quj} without the verb {nge'} - would you know I talk about somebody's pride? (Well, KGT says that phrases outside of context would only be understood literally, but I'd ask anyway.) 3. Some idioms consist of only a noun phrase, like {naH jajmey}. Wouldn't that also be a metonymy? See the page here: http://klingon.wiki/En/Metaphor -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com
On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 09:25, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Hi,
I just started a page in the Klingon.wiki listing metaphorically used words and also metonyms. Okrand did not name them as such, and I noticed ther are others that fit in such alist which were not explicitally label as such, like {Soj} meaning "matter, affair" instead of "food".
Then I noticed that many of the idioms use (or are) metaphors, so it kind of overlaps. Now come the questions...
1. Did anyone ever make such a compilation already?
Not exactly, but if you look at {boQwI'}'s database, sentences which are idioms are tagged as such (they have "part_of_speech" set to "sen:idiom"). Not all of them are metaphors. The list isn't that long, so I'll post it here: beyHom bey bey'a' jachtaH bIQ ngaS HIvje'. bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'. bo'Dagh'a' lo' bo'DaghHom lo' cha'maH cha' joQDu' cha' DoSmey DIqIp. cha' qabDu' Doq bIQtIq bIQ DoS chIl ghaH vuv SuS neH ghe'torvo' narghDI' qa'pu' Ha'quj nge' Hoch jaghpu'Daj HoHbogh SuvwI' yIvup. Hoch nuH qel jop 'ej way' latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr yIqang! latlh je lInchuq may' bom pIm bom mIn yuq mIvDaq pogh cha' mIv je DaS notlh tonSaw'lIj. ngaQ lojmIt ngem Sarghmey tlha' pel'aQDaj ghorpa' pe'vIl bI'chu' pe'vIl roS pollaH pagh polHa'laH pumDI' qabDu' law' qagh HoH qIvon belmoH qul DIr yISop! quSDaq ba' Qoylu'taH ro'lIj HI'ang! SuD veqlargh mInDu'. tIngvo' 'evDaq chanDaq to'waQ yIv vaj Duj chIj vIHtaH gho wa' DoS wIqIp. wa'maH cha' pemmey wa'maH cha' rammey je 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'? 'ebmey jonHa' 'e' qa' 'IDnar lIl 'IwwIj jeD law' 'IwlIj jeD puS. 'oy'qu' Qay'wI'wIj.
2. Would you understand and/or accept words taken from idioms in a different context, like if I use {Ha'quj} without the verb {nge'} - would you know I talk about somebody's pride? (Well, KGT says that phrases outside of context would only be understood literally, but I'd ask anyway.)
No, if I thought it wasn't literal, I would think you were talking about their {tuq}, which is what it's a symbol of.
3. Some idioms consist of only a noun phrase, like {naH jajmey}. Wouldn't that also be a metonymy?
Some idioms are instances of metonymy, but not all idioms which are noun phrases are metonyms. {chatlh} meaning "nonsense" is an idiom, but not a metonym. -- De'vID
Being on the subject, I always wondered if we could say {yIHvam wIHoHnIS} for "we need to overcome this problem". ~ Qa'yIn
On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 12:17, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Being on the subject, I always wondered if we could say {yIHvam wIHoHnIS} for "we need to overcome this problem".
If this problem that you're referring to is a tribble which we need to kill, then yes. -- De'vID
On Jun 18, 2020, at 04:08, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 12:17, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote: Being on the subject, I always wondered if we could say {yIHvam wIHoHnIS} for "we need to overcome this problem".
If this problem that you're referring to is a tribble which we need to kill, then yes.
ghIlo'meH neH Daghajchugh vaj yIHmey rur Hoch SengmeylIj.
Am 17.06.2020 um 12:03 schrieb De'vID:
Not exactly, but if you look at {boQwI'}'s database, sentences which are idioms are tagged as such (they have "part_of_speech" set to "sen:idiom"). Not all of them are metaphors.
Since I'm not sure about the definition, I must ask: Which ones ARE metaphors? FYI, there is a list of idioms at the klingon.wiki/En/Idioms
Some idioms are instances of metonymy, but not all idioms which are noun phrases are metonyms. {chatlh} meaning "nonsense" is an idiom, but not a metonym.
Eeeuhh.... -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Metaphor
On 6/17/2020 3:25 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
I just started a page in the Klingon.wiki listing metaphorically used words and also metonyms. Okrand did not name them as such, and I noticed ther are others that fit in such alist which were not explicitally label as such, like {Soj} meaning "matter, affair" instead of "food".
Is that actually a metonym? I understand metonymy to be when you use an element of a thing to name the thing itself. For instance, when someone refers to "the crown" to mean the royal ruler. The crown is an element of the royal person being used to name to the royal person. *Soj* /food/ is not an element of a matter or affair that can be used to name a matter or affair, so it's not a metonym.
3. Some idioms consist of only a noun phrase, like {naH jajmey}. Wouldn't that also be a metonymy?
That's not a metonym either. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 17.06.2020 um 15:11 schrieb SuStel:
Is that actually a metonym? I understand metonymy to be when you use an element of a thing to name the thing itself. For instance, when someone refers to "the crown" to mean the royal ruler. The crown is an element of the royal person being used to name to the royal person.
Yes, indeed. Another example is "Hollywood" referring to movie business in general. Okrand used the term only in one place, regarding {ngup}: Literally meaning "cape," this slang term is an example of metonymy, whereby one word (or phrase) stands for another with which it is associated. In this case, the leader of the Klingon High Council typically wears a ceremonial cape. (KGT p. 157)
*Soj* /food/ is not an element of a matter or affair that can be used to name a matter or affair, so it's not a metonym.
Thanks. I'll mark it as such. So it's a metaphor?
3. Some idioms consist of only a noun phrase, like {naH jajmey}. Wouldn't that also be a metonymy?
That's not a metonym either.
So also a metaphor? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Metaphor
On 6/17/2020 9:43 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
*Soj* /food/ is not an element of a matter or affair that can be used to name a matter or affair, so it's not a metonym.
Thanks. I'll mark it as such. So it's a metaphor?
Maybe. A metaphor is a word (or phrase) that is used in place of another word (or phrase), and which shares some common characteristics with the other word, but which is unrelated to that word. I can imagine *Soj* /food/ being a metaphor for /matter, affair, concern/ in that food is often a central affair in life. On the other hand, I can also imagine food being considered a major part of many events that might deal with important matters, making *Soj* a metonym. Neither interpretation seems convincing to me.
3. Some idioms consist of only a noun phrase, like {naH jajmey}. Wouldn't that also be a metonymy?
That's not a metonym either.
So also a metaphor?
Yes, and the imagery is explained to us. The phrase “vegetable days” (or “fruit days,” since *naH *means both “vegetable” and “fruit”) refers to one’s youth, a time before reaching an age considered appropriate for marriage. The imagery is of a plant, rooted but growing, just as a Klingon youth still needs grounding (the home) for nourishment (teaching) in order to grow spiritually. [KGT] The characteristic of being tied to a place for some kind of growth is common to both rooted plants and one's youth, but otherwise the two phrases are unrelated. That's the very definition of a metaphor. I don't think it's an especially useful endeavor to label which words have been used metaphorically in Klingon. Idioms need explanation because the meanings of idioms can't be deduced without an external explanation, but metaphors can be understood just by recognizing the characteristics involved. If you label *naH jajmey* as a metaphor, what use is that to the reader? Understanding metaphor can be useful in many areas, like poetry, storytelling, and speech-writing. But to classify words and phrases as metaphors does not, I think, add any meaningful grammatical information. A metaphor arises in how you use a phrase, not in its mere existence. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 17.06.2020 um 16:19 schrieb SuStel:
important matters, making *Soj* a metonym. Neither interpretation seems convincing to me.
Thinking more about it, I believe it's not a metaphor. But I'm not a linguist.
characteristics involved. If you label *naH jajmey* as a metaphor, what use is that to the reader?
In this direction - nothing. But if somebody asks if there are any common metaphors in Klingon, I'd like to have an answer. Okrand has sometimes even written "bla is used metaphorically" so I like making a list of all "bla" in connection with being "used metaphorically". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/En/Metaphor
On Wed, 2020-06-17 at 16:35 +0200, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 17.06.2020 um 16:19 schrieb SuStel:
characteristics involved. If you label *naH jajmey* as a metaphor, what use is that to the reader?
In this direction - nothing. But if somebody asks if there are any common metaphors in Klingon, I'd like to have an answer.
Okrand has sometimes even written "bla is used metaphorically" so I like making a list of all "bla" in connection with being "used metaphorically".
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
It could be helpful for a beginner who is confused when someone uses a metaphor. - DloraH
participants (6)
-
De'vID -
DloraH -
Hugh Son puqloD -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
SuStel