new info on body movements
I had a Q&A with Marc Okrand/Maltz on some gymnastics and martial arts terminology. I'll post the transcript after I've had a chance to look it over for typos and maybe get some clarifications. In the meantime, here's a summary of the new info which was revealed: {ron} v. roll, be rolling [generalises {ron} "roll (aircraft wings tilt, one up, one down)"; we already knew this applied to more than aircraft because it was used for dice in Klingon Monopoly] {Hay} v. somersault [a controlled roll, whereas {ron} applied to a person would mean they were rolling haphazardly] {tetlh} v. roll (down a hill like a log) {Dav} v. sidestep, sway [generalises {Dav} "sway (aircraft moves to the side without yawing)"] {ler} v. wobble {Der} v. veer (to the left or right while traveling or moving) [generalises {Der} "yaw (aircraft nose points left or right)"] {jIm} v. shrug [generalises {jIm} "heave (aircraft rising or falling without pitching)"] {lID} v. travel or move a specified or measurable distance or trajectory [used with verbs of movement which don't take distance or trajectory as their object] {tonSaw'} is used to name martial arts poses or stances; {much} is used for striking a pose, and takes the named stance as the object ({tonSaw'} may be dropped from the name if it's clear) -- De'vID
majQa'! Did Okrand provide any examples of {lID}? {DaDelpu' 'ach vIyajbe'.} On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 4:57 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
I had a Q&A with Marc Okrand/Maltz on some gymnastics and martial arts terminology. I'll post the transcript after I've had a chance to look it over for typos and maybe get some clarifications. In the meantime, here's a summary of the new info which was revealed:
{ron} v. roll, be rolling [generalises {ron} "roll (aircraft wings tilt, one up, one down)"; we already knew this applied to more than aircraft because it was used for dice in Klingon Monopoly] {Hay} v. somersault [a controlled roll, whereas {ron} applied to a person would mean they were rolling haphazardly] {tetlh} v. roll (down a hill like a log) {Dav} v. sidestep, sway [generalises {Dav} "sway (aircraft moves to the side without yawing)"] {ler} v. wobble {Der} v. veer (to the left or right while traveling or moving) [generalises {Der} "yaw (aircraft nose points left or right)"] {jIm} v. shrug [generalises {jIm} "heave (aircraft rising or falling without pitching)"] {lID} v. travel or move a specified or measurable distance or trajectory [used with verbs of movement which don't take distance or trajectory as their object] {tonSaw'} is used to name martial arts poses or stances; {much} is used for striking a pose, and takes the named stance as the object ({tonSaw'} may be dropped from the name if it's clear)
-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Dun! Being able to describe human(oid) motion is always interesting. I wonder if the difference between Hay and tetlh has to do with the geometry of the rolling thing or with the agency of the roller. A somersaulting gymnast and a rolling log both perform rotations about their axis of symmetry (very approximately speaking), but the log resembles a long cylinder while the human resembles a wheel or a ball. A gymnast rolling like a log across a floor and a clumsy skier rolling like a log down a hill both resemble long cylinders, but one needs to work actively to maintain their momentum while the other can just let nature run its course (hopefully very gradually). lID seems very useful. From the description, I take it it could be used in a way like: Sup targh; wej 'uj lID. "The targ jumped three 'uj." jISupDI' wa' 'uj'a' SaS vIlIDlaH. ("I can jump one 'uj'a' horizontally.") lojmIt tIQ poSmoHmeH, leQmeyDaq SuptaHvIS He le' lIDta'. ("In order to unlock the ancient door, she (successfully) jumped on the switches in a special pattern.") I wonder if the trajectory can be a destination, as in raS pIrmuS lIDmeH Sup vIghro'. ("The cat jumped up on the table."). //loghaD ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 10:56 To: tlhIngan-Hol Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] new info on body movements I had a Q&A with Marc Okrand/Maltz on some gymnastics and martial arts terminology. I'll post the transcript after I've had a chance to look it over for typos and maybe get some clarifications. In the meantime, here's a summary of the new info which was revealed: {ron} v. roll, be rolling [generalises {ron} "roll (aircraft wings tilt, one up, one down)"; we already knew this applied to more than aircraft because it was used for dice in Klingon Monopoly] {Hay} v. somersault [a controlled roll, whereas {ron} applied to a person would mean they were rolling haphazardly] {tetlh} v. roll (down a hill like a log) {Dav} v. sidestep, sway [generalises {Dav} "sway (aircraft moves to the side without yawing)"] {ler} v. wobble {Der} v. veer (to the left or right while traveling or moving) [generalises {Der} "yaw (aircraft nose points left or right)"] {jIm} v. shrug [generalises {jIm} "heave (aircraft rising or falling without pitching)"] {lID} v. travel or move a specified or measurable distance or trajectory [used with verbs of movement which don't take distance or trajectory as their object] {tonSaw'} is used to name martial arts poses or stances; {much} is used for striking a pose, and takes the named stance as the object ({tonSaw'} may be dropped from the name if it's clear) -- De'vID
De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> schrieb am Fr., 1. März 2019, 10:56:
I had a Q&A with Marc Okrand/Maltz on some gymnastics and martial arts terminology. I'll post the transcript after I've had a chance to look it over for typos and maybe get some clarifications. In the meantime, here's a summary of the new info which was revealed:
{ron} v. roll, be rolling [generalises {ron} "roll (aircraft wings tilt, one up, one down)"; we already knew this applied to more than aircraft because it was used for dice in Klingon Monopoly] {Hay} v. somersault [a controlled roll, whereas {ron} applied to a person would mean they were rolling haphazardly] {tetlh} v. roll (down a hill like a log) {Dav} v. sidestep, sway [generalises {Dav} "sway (aircraft moves to the side without yawing)"] {ler} v. wobble {Der} v. veer (to the left or right while traveling or moving) [generalises {Der} "yaw (aircraft nose points left or right)"] {jIm} v. shrug [generalises {jIm} "heave (aircraft rising or falling without pitching)"] {lID} v. travel or move a specified or measurable distance or trajectory [used with verbs of movement which don't take distance or trajectory as their object] {tonSaw'} is used to name martial arts poses or stances; {much} is used for striking a pose, and takes the named stance as the object ({tonSaw'} may be dropped from the name if it's clear)
Full transcript follows. Fixed a few typos. In one place he wrote "rod" and followed by asking if pendulum was the right term, which it was, so I put it where he was referring to it in brackets. --- begin Q&A --- [De'vID]> Can {ron} be used for people, such as in martial arts or gymnastics? Yes… IF it means that the person is rolling haphazardly. If the person is doing a somersault (rolling forwards or backwards in a reasonably controlled manner), the verb is {Hay}. If the person is rolling down a hill as if he/she were a log, the verb is {tetlh} (related to the noun meaning "scroll," though it's not used for scrolls… unless a scroll is rolling down a hill). [De'vID]> What about {Dav} "sway", {Der} "yaw", {jer} "surge", and {jIm} "heave"? Can these be applied to people or animals, or inanimate objects (e.g., something sways in the wind)? {Dav} can be used if it's referring to movement by the whole body (or whole thing, if it's an inanimate object) to the left or right. It's not used if the person's feet stay put but his/her upper body leans left and/or right (like the back-and-forth motion of the rod [inverted pendulum] of a metronome); for that kind of motion, the verb is {ler}, which can also be translated "wobble." {Der} can be used for people (and other things) meaning something like "veer to the left or right while traveling or moving." Maltz didn't recall ever hearing {jer} used for anything other than aircraft (or other vehicles), but he said he'd have to think about this some more. {jIm}, when applied to people, is generally used for "shrug" (like what many Terrans do with their shoulders to indicate "I don't know"). You could say {jIm SuvwI' volchaHDu'} "the warrior's shoulders shrug," but most commonly {volchaH(Du')} is left out (and you'd just say {jIm SuvwI'} "the warrior shrugs"). You could also say {volchaHDu'Daj jImmoH SuvwI'} "the warrior shrugs his/her shoulders}. (If the context is clear, you can leave out {-Du'} and/or {-Daj}.) [De'vID]> Can any of these verbs take an object, such as an angle or a distance (as appropriate to the verb)? No. To indicate how far the motion was (how far the person/object moved), make use of the verb {lID}, meaning something like "travel or move a specified or measurable distance or trajectory." The object of {lID} is the distance moved or range of motion. So you could say {ron SuvwI'; chorgh 'uj(mey) lID} "the warrior rolled (haphazardly) for eight ujes" (literally, "the warrior rolled; he/she traveled/moved/traversed eight ujes"). It could also be the other way around: {chorgh 'uj(mey) lID SuvwI'; ron} "the warrior rolled (haphazardly) for eight ujes" (literally, "the warrior traveled/moved/traversed eight ujes; he/she rolled"). Or {ron muD Duj; javmaH lawrI'(mey) lID} "the airplane rolled 60º." (The semicolons here don't matter. You could also use a period, since, really, they're pairs of sentences.) [De'vID]> Can {lol} (applied to people) take the name of a martial arts stance? For example, can one give a command such as {mIl'oD lol yIlol} "strike a sabre bear pose (martial arts stance)" ({lol} is a noun meaning a martial arts stance)? If not, how would one give the command to strike a specific named martial arts pose? The noun {lol} refers to a specific martial arts stance. It's not a general term for "stance" (so you don't say {mIl'oD lol} "sabre bear pose"). {tonSaw'} "fighting technique," however, is used as a general term for "stance" when talking about Mok'bara poses and the like, so you could say {mIl'oD tonSaw'} "sabre bear stance." The verb {lol} means "be in a stance"; it doesn't take an object. To command someone to strike a specific pose (typically a martial arts pose or stance), use the verb {much}, usually glossed as "present, perform," with the specific pose as the object: {mIl'oD tonSaw' yImuch} "strike the sabre bear pose!" If the context is clear — that is, if {mIl'oD} is known to mean the name of a pose -- then you can leave {tonSaw'} out and just say {mIl'oD yImuch} "strike the sabre bear (pose)!" (This is like in English when talking about yoga poses: "Do the downward facing dog!") If you were performing in a play and your character was a sabre bear, the director might also say {mIl'oD yImuch}, meaning something like "perform/present the sabre bear (role)!" --- end Q&A --- -- De'vID
A bit more info in a follow-up, which reveals an additional verb. {lav} v. lean, incline, slant --- begin Q&A follow-up --- [De'vID]> Can {ler} be used to mean "oscillate", like for a usual pendulum (with the pivot at the top)? Or is it only used when the pivot is at the bottom? Also, would a regular rhythm like that of a metronome be described as {lerchu'}? Yes. {ler} can be used for "oscillate," and it can be used for a pendulum regardless of whether the pivot is at the top or bottom (or somewhere else). And {lerchu'} could be used for what a metronome does. Maltz was glad you asked these questions, because they reminded him of another word (and helped clarify the meaning of this one). The other word is {lav}, which can be translated "lean, incline, slant" and so on. It means something like "move to a slanted or angled position." The starting position is often, but doesn't have to be, upright or perpendicular. If it's a person, the person's feet stay put (as with {ler}). And, as with {ler}, the pivot point can be on top (or somewhere else). The difference between {ler} and {lav} is that {ler} is used for continuous swinging, back and forth and back and forth (forward-back-forward-back, etc., or left-right-left-right, etc.), while {lav} means motion in one direction only, then the motion stops (though the stop can be very brief). Returning to the upright (or earlier) position is {lavHa'}. For both {ler} and {lav}, the direction of motion doesn't matter (left, right, forward, whatever). [De'vID]> Can I assume that {much} is used not just for commands, but also statements? For example: {lol SuvwI'; mIl'oD much}. Yes. --- end Q&A follow-up --- -- De'vID
participants (3)
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De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
nIqolay Q