With regards to invectives
So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective. But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ? Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ? qunnoq
Am 19.07.2017 um 16:36 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
I understand them as self standing phrases on their own. i.e. "exclamations": mughoS Duj. baQa'! vIleghbe'. Qu'vatlh! chIj DIvI' HoD. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Cursing http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Exclamations
Is an invective word the same with a curse word ? For example, is there any difference between the {baQa'} and the {QI'yaH} ? qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 6:08 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 19.07.2017 um 16:36 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
I understand them as self standing phrases on their own. i.e. "exclamations":
mughoS Duj. baQa'! vIleghbe'. Qu'vatlh! chIj DIvI' HoD.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Cursing http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Exclamations _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is an invective word the same with a curse word ?
For example, is there any difference between the {baQa'} and the {QI'yaH} ?
If there is, we don't know what it would be. Is there any difference between "arsehole" and "dickhead", or "damn it" and "bloody hell"? Not that I know of. They are just words and phrases used to insult or show annoyance/frustration/pain/etc. What about in Greek? I'm sure there are words that you use as insults to people that aren't taken to mean what the word(s) might literally mean. :) qurgh
I think the difference between them is that one is just an exclamation and cannot be used as a part of a sentence, while the other is essentially a noun that can be used to describe someone, which can be used as a subject, object, etc. and can potentially receive suffixes. - André On 19 Jul 2017 9:54 p.m., "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is an invective word the same with a curse word ?
For example, is there any difference between the {baQa'} and the {QI'yaH} ?
If there is, we don't know what it would be.
Is there any difference between "arsehole" and "dickhead", or "damn it" and "bloody hell"? Not that I know of. They are just words and phrases used to insult or show annoyance/frustration/pain/etc.
What about in Greek? I'm sure there are words that you use as insults to people that aren't taken to mean what the word(s) might literally mean. :)
qurgh
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Both {baQa'} and {QI'yaH} are general invectives. I would say they can only be used as exclamations. If you are commenting on the difference between the two sets of English words I used as examples, then you misunderstood my sentence. It was pointing out the difference between two insults or the difference between two general invectives, not the difference between the two sets. qurgh On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, André Müller <esperantist@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the difference between them is that one is just an exclamation and cannot be used as a part of a sentence, while the other is essentially a noun that can be used to describe someone, which can be used as a subject, object, etc. and can potentially receive suffixes.
- André
On 19 Jul 2017 9:54 p.m., "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Is an invective word the same with a curse word ?
For example, is there any difference between the {baQa'} and the {QI'yaH} ?
If there is, we don't know what it would be.
Is there any difference between "arsehole" and "dickhead", or "damn it" and "bloody hell"? Not that I know of. They are just words and phrases used to insult or show annoyance/frustration/pain/etc.
What about in Greek? I'm sure there are words that you use as insults to people that aren't taken to mean what the word(s) might literally mean. :)
qurgh
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On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:36 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective.
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations. Qu'vatlh! nISwI'wIj nIH yaS! toDSaH ghaH! qurgh
qurgh:
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations.
Wouldn't be strange though to use an epithet as an exclamation ? An epithet like {petaQ} {Qovpatlh} {taHqeq} etc, describes a person, right ? So, how could we use it in a moment of lets say anger or frustration, without referring to a specific person ? Would it make for example sense to say: {QapHa' jonta'. taHqeq !} ? qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 6:21 pm, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:36 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective.
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations.
Qu'vatlh! nISwI'wIj nIH yaS! toDSaH ghaH!
qurgh
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qurgh:
Is there any difference between "arsehole" and "dickhead", or "damn it" and "bloody hell"? Not that I know of. They are just words and phrases used to insult or show annoyance/frustration/pain/etc.
You're right. The only difference I can think of, is that the first two describe a person, while the second pair can be used as exclamations in response to an unfortunate situation, anger etc.. qurgh
What about in Greek? I'm sure there are words that you use as insults to people that aren't taken to mean what the word(s) might literally mean. :)
Yes, you're 100 percent right ! qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 6:33 pm, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
qurgh:
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations.
Wouldn't be strange though to use an epithet as an exclamation ? An epithet like {petaQ} {Qovpatlh} {taHqeq} etc, describes a person, right ?
So, how could we use it in a moment of lets say anger or frustration, without referring to a specific person ?
Would it make for example sense to say: {QapHa' jonta'. taHqeq !} ?
qunnoq
On 19 Jul 2017 6:21 pm, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 10:36 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective.
But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ?
Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ?
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations.
Qu'vatlh! nISwI'wIj nIH yaS! toDSaH ghaH!
qurgh
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On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:39 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
qurgh:
Is there any difference between "arsehole" and "dickhead", or "damn it" and "bloody hell"? Not that I know of. They are just words and phrases used to insult or show annoyance/frustration/pain/etc.
You're right. The only difference I can think of, is that the first two describe a person, while the second pair can be used as exclamations in response to an unfortunate situation, anger etc..
For sure! I wanted to give examples of both epithets and general invectives to cover both types of insults. I didn't intend to add any confusion (if that happened). qurgh
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:33 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
qurgh:
I use the general invectives as exclamations and the epithets as nouns or exclamations.
Wouldn't be strange though to use an epithet as an exclamation ? An epithet like {petaQ} {Qovpatlh} {taHqeq} etc, describes a person, right ?
No. "Oy! Dickhead! Get off my lawn!" - {'o! taHqeq! magh yotlh yIlItHa'!} Epithets can be used as nouns (toDSaH SoH!) or exclamations (toDSaH!!!) when you are calling someone it.
So, how could we use it in a moment of lets say anger or frustration, without referring to a specific person ?
You wouldn't. That's what the general invectives are for. Drop something heavy on your foot? Qu'vatlh! Get some unsettling news? QI'yaH!
Would it make for example sense to say: {QapHa' jonta'. taHqeq !} ?
An English version of this would be something like "The engines don't work. Asshole!" Does that work? I guess if you are calling the {jonta'} a {taHqeq} it works. qurgh
AFAIK the only example of an expletive used “within the sentence” – rather than an introductory exclamation or the like – was from Okrand’s notes for ST5 in a line that didn’t make it into the movie: ghuy' po'qu' Damn he's good (i.e. Kirk; ST5 notes) and the English could easily be re-punctuated “Damn! He’s good.” Oddly, I couldn’t find any examples of invective used in the paq’batlh. Perhaps they’re considered inappropriate in religious/classical literature - even for Klingons! (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?) The common epithet {petaQ}, and even {petaQ’a’}, does appear a few times however. In “The Klingon Hamlet” I know of these non-Okrandian examples: va, Do'Ha' yorIq Alas, poor Yorick! (TKH) baQa', Qovpatlh, toy'wI"a' qal je jIH O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I! (TKH) And finally in the TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to convince Governor Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to Kriosian rebels, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a *tah-keck*!" Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "*Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka!*" Vagh complimented him: "You swear well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood in your veins." (Spellings from the closed captions). Obviously the writers just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted it. --Voragh From: mayqel qunenoS So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective. But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ? Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ? qunnoq
On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
Oddly, I couldn’t find any examples of invective used in the paq’batlh. Perhaps they’re considered inappropriate in religious/classical literature - even for Klingons! (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?)
I'm pretty sure there's at least one {jay'} in there. The English line started as something like "Curse this Klingon...", but I don't remember the exact line nor where in the book it was.
And finally in the TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to convince Governor Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to Kriosian rebels, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a **tah-keck****!" Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "**Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka*!*" Vagh complimented him: "You swear well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood in your veins." (Spellings from the closed captions).
Obviously the writers just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted it.
Did the TV show lines come before or after their appearance in TKD? I thought a lot of Klingon curses started out as TV-Hol that got retconned into being real words. Someday I'd like to hear from Maltz about what makes Klingon curses into curses and not merely just insults. What concepts do they consider profane or vulgar, what are the etymologies of their curse words (real or folk), that sort of thing. (I'm also curious about if there are other categories of profanity besides epithets, interjections for bad situations, and {jay'}.)
AFAIK there’s only the one example of in the paq’batlh: tuHbe' tlhInganvam jay' Curse this Klingon, who has no shame! (PB) We have several examples of the unusual adverbial {jay’} and it’s use is understood but, as qunnoq was asking how “the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}” are used, I didn’t list it. --Voragh From: nIqolay Q On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: Oddly, I couldn’t find any examples of invective used in the paq’batlh. Perhaps they’re considered inappropriate in religious/classical literature - even for Klingons! (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?) I'm pretty sure there's at least one {jay'} in there. The English line started as something like "Curse this Klingon...", but I don't remember the exact line nor where in the book it was.
________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 11:39 AM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] With regards to invectives On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu<mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: And finally in the TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to convince Governor Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to Kriosian rebels, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a *tah-keck*!" Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "*Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka!*" Vagh complimented him: "You swear well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood in your veins." (Spellings from the closed captions). Obviously the writers just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted it. From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Did the TV show lines come before or after their appearance in TKD? I thought a lot of Klingon curses started out as TV-Hol that got retconned into being real words.
First of all, I felt that Vagh was patronizing him. Entertained by his knowledge and his attempt, but silently laughing at the failure of the attempt. He decided it was enough to count as a pass on his little test and so played along rather than keep it going by pointing out how bad it actually was. Second, the episode aired in May 1991 (meaning it may have actually been filmed in 1990) and the Addendum of TKD came out in January 1992. They definitely did not look the words up in the dictionary and it is possible that they made up the words and Okrand would then have taken the words from the episode. However, I have a suspicion that they asked Okrand for some curse words, he wrote up a whole list for them, and then he added them into the addendum he was already working on. Jeremy
voragh:
qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?
ghelwI'vam vIjanglaH net jalchugh, vaj jIQuch. Do'Ha', wejmaH ben, DuSaQDaq lutmeyvam vIHaD vaj DaH vIqawlaHbe'.. I wish I could answer this but I can't. It was thirty years ago when I studied these poems at school, so now I can't remember. qunnoq On 19 Jul 2017 7:17 pm, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote: AFAIK the only example of an expletive used “within the sentence” – rather than an introductory exclamation or the like – was from Okrand’s notes for ST5 in a line that didn’t make it into the movie: * ghuy'* *po'qu' * Damn he's good (i.e. Kirk; ST5 notes) and the English could easily be re-punctuated “Damn! He’s good.” Oddly, I couldn’t find any examples of invective used in the paq’batlh. Perhaps they’re considered inappropriate in religious/classical literature - even for Klingons! (qunnoq, are there any in the Iliad or Odyssey, or have these texts been expurgated over the centuries?) The common epithet {petaQ}, and even {petaQ’a’}, does appear a few times however. In “The Klingon Hamlet” I know of these non-Okrandian examples: * va*,* Do'Ha'** yorIq * * Alas*,* poor Yorick*! (TKH) * baQa', Qovpatlh, toy'wI"a' qal je jIH* O, what a rogue and peasant slave am I! (TKH) And finally in the TNG episode "The Mind's Eye" when Picard failed to convince Governor Vagh that the Federation wasn't supplying weapons to Kriosian rebels, Vagh shouted: "You speak the lies of a **tah-keck****!" Picard calmly leaned forward and replied, "**Qu'vatlh guy'cha b'aka*!*" Vagh complimented him: "You swear well, Picard. You must have Klingon blood in your veins." (Spellings from the closed captions). Obviously the writers just strung some words together, but Vagh accepted it. --Voragh *From:* mayqel qunenoS So we have the {jay'}, which always comes at the end of the sentence, transforming the entire sentence into an invective. But how are the other invectives i.e. {va} {Hu'tegh} {ghay'cha'} {baQa'}, used ? Are they placed at the end of the sentence ? Somewhere else within the sentence, or are they placed between sentences ? qunnoq _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (7)
-
André Müller -
David Holt -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
qurgh lungqIj -
Steven Boozer