Klingon Word of the Day for Friday, October 27, 2017 Klingon word: Santay Part of speech: noun Definition: honorific zantai Source: qepHom 2014 This Klingon Word of the Day is brought to you by qurgh (qurgh@kli.org).
Klingon word: Santay Part of speech: noun Definition: honorific zantai Source: qepHom 2014 _______________________________________________ I believe these were originally posted to this list by either Lieven or De'vID in November 2014: ------------------------------------------------------------------- [qepHom 2014] There exist a handful of honorific titles used by many Klingon fangroups, such as the German Khemorex Klinzhai and also the Klingon Assault Group, KAG. These five words come from John M. Ford's 1984 novel The Final Reflection and are the following, from lowest to highest: tai, sutai, vestai, zantai, and epetai. The meaning of these words is based in John Ford's Klingonaase language and can roughly be explained as follows: tai is a symbol of honor. The syllable zan is another title of respect, but it's not clear if those two syllables mean anything else when combined. Now, at this point, Marc Okrand was asked if there is a Klingon spelling known for these titles, since many people use them. He did not say anything about the literal meaning, or if there is a relationship between tlhIngan Hol and Klingonaase. But he said that there is no problem with using the word tay as an honorific title. The word itself means ceremony in the Klingon we speak, but there won't be any misunderstanding when somebody says bIl tay jo'rIj jIH "I am Bill ceremony George". That would make no sense at all. Okrand then confirmed the klingon spelling for those words: tay Sutay veStay Santay 'Iptay We can now safely use the Klingon honorifics ranks, and should not think about any literal meaning or any conflict with the Klingonaase language. Maybe these words are merely names for these ranks or they come from an unknown dialect of the Klingon empire. I'll send Maltz' comment in another email. _______________________________________________
From Marc Okrand, to the qepHom 2014:
Maltz actually had a bit more to add (though he didn't answer all questions). He said he knew something about all of the titles but one. Whether his understanding of them is based on what they really mean (or, more correctly, historically meant) or are just "folk etymologies" (etymologies made up after the fact that "make sense" to speakers but don't really have anything to do with where the words come from) is not clear. He didn't provide any information on how these titles are used or the like, but he said he had heard all of them. In any case, here's what he said: Sutay was the one honorific he wasn't sure about. He said he'd heard it had something to do with readiness or preparedness, as reflected in Su' and SuH, alternate forms of an exclamation meaning Ready! or Standing by! But he really didn't know. veStay is related to veS war, warfare, so it's clearly a fitting honorific for a Klingon. Santay, he said, is related to SanID thousand. Maltz said that he heard that an older form of this honorific was SanIDtay but over time, it was shortened. But he also heard that Santay really comes from the Krotmag dialect's pronunciation of SaD, an alternate form for thousand, which sounds to most non-Krotmag Klingons more like San (though the final consonant is not quite an n). He noted that because of the changes in pronunciation, many Klingons aren't aware of the connection to thousand and think that the title has something to do with San fate. Maltz said this wasn't correct. Despite all of that, he wasn't sure about the significance of thousand. He thought it might just be a high number, reflecting a high rank, but the fact that the other honorifics have nothing to do with numbers casts doubt on his theory. 'Iptay is related to 'Ip oath (and there's also a verb 'Ip meaning swear, vow). One's honor is at stake when making a vow or swearing an oath, so he thought this also was a very appropriate honorific. -------------------------------------------------------------------
I enjoy when Okrand acknowledges, in a little way now and then, that there's plenty of room for Klingonaase alongside tlhIngan Hol in the Klingon Empire. This reminds me of something I've been wondering about for a while. Eons ago, Okrand did an interview with a British magazine called Radio Times, which is mentioned and summarized in this message: http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-08-rt.txt (He mentions Klingonaase in the interview, which is why this Word of the Day reminded me of it.) But I haven't been able to find the actual text of the interview, just Voragh's summary of it. Does anybody here have the actual text of the interview floating around, or know where it can be found? On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
Klingon word: Santay Part of speech: noun Definition: honorific zantai Source: qepHom 2014 _______________________________________________ I believe these were originally posted to this list by either Lieven or De'vID in November 2014:
------------------------------------------------------------------- [qepHom 2014]
There exist a handful of honorific titles used by many Klingon fangroups, such as the German Khemorex Klinzhai and also the Klingon Assault Group, KAG. These five words come from John M. Ford's 1984 novel The Final Reflection and are the following, from lowest to highest: tai, sutai, vestai, zantai, and epetai. The meaning of these words is based in John Ford's Klingonaase language and can roughly be explained as follows: tai is a symbol of honor. The syllable zan is another title of respect, but it's not clear if those two syllables mean anything else when combined.
Now, at this point, Marc Okrand was asked if there is a Klingon spelling known for these titles, since many people use them. He did not say anything about the literal meaning, or if there is a relationship between tlhIngan Hol and Klingonaase. But he said that there is no problem with using the word tay as an honorific title. The word itself means ceremony in the Klingon we speak, but there won't be any misunderstanding when somebody says
bIl tay jo'rIj jIH "I am Bill ceremony George". That would make no sense at all.
Okrand then confirmed the klingon spelling for those words:
tay Sutay veStay Santay 'Iptay
We can now safely use the Klingon honorifics ranks, and should not think about any literal meaning or any conflict with the Klingonaase language. Maybe these words are merely names for these ranks or they come from an unknown dialect of the Klingon empire.
I'll send Maltz' comment in another email. _______________________________________________
From Marc Okrand, to the qepHom 2014:
Maltz actually had a bit more to add (though he didn't answer all questions). He said he knew something about all of the titles but one. Whether his understanding of them is based on what they really mean (or, more correctly, historically meant) or are just "folk etymologies" (etymologies made up after the fact that "make sense" to speakers but don't really have anything to do with where the words come from) is not clear. He didn't provide any information on how these titles are used or the like, but he said he had heard all of them. In any case, here's what he said:
Sutay was the one honorific he wasn't sure about. He said he'd heard it had something to do with readiness or preparedness, as reflected in Su' and SuH, alternate forms of an exclamation meaning Ready! or Standing by! But he really didn't know.
veStay is related to veS war, warfare, so it's clearly a fitting honorific for a Klingon.
Santay, he said, is related to SanID thousand. Maltz said that he heard that an older form of this honorific was SanIDtay but over time, it was shortened. But he also heard that Santay really comes from the Krotmag dialect's pronunciation of SaD, an alternate form for thousand, which sounds to most non-Krotmag Klingons more like San (though the final consonant is not quite an n). He noted that because of the changes in pronunciation, many Klingons aren't aware of the connection to thousand and think that the title has something to do with San fate. Maltz said this wasn't correct. Despite all of that, he wasn't sure about the significance of thousand. He thought it might just be a high number, reflecting a high rank, but the fact that the other honorifics have nothing to do with numbers casts doubt on his theory.
'Iptay is related to 'Ip oath (and there's also a verb 'Ip meaning swear, vow). One's honor is at stake when making a vow or swearing an oath, so he thought this also was a very appropriate honorific.
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It’s not the actual interview with Okrand, but here’s what I do have (supplied by Niall Hosking to the list): --Voragh ------------------------------------- MARC OKRAND INTERVIEW (Radio Times) The British television magazine Radio Times, doing a special for Star Trek's 30th Anniversary (August 1996), got Marc Okrand to translate a few "Handy Klingon Phrases" for its readers. Thanks to Niall Hosking, here they are reproduced exactly as printed complete with pronunciation: Hello (literally "What do you want?") nuqneH (pronounced nook-NEKH) Beam me up Hijol (KHI-jol) Live long and prosper yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep (yin nil ya-SHEEKH ledj ya-CHEP) [Mene sakkhet ur-seveh in Vulcan] May your blood scream 'IwlIj jachjaj (euw-lidge jatch-jadge) Where is the bathroom? nuqDaq 'oH puchpa''e' (nook-DAK och pooch-pa! eh?) They also published a special 168 page book with interviews with cast and production staff, information on various people connected with the series, and an up-to-date listing of episodes and movies (all of Classic, TNG, DS9 and Voyager to date). The most interesting bit is a 4-page spread where Okrand is interviewed by Radio Times. It mentions some interesting facts about the language's origin (based on influences from American Indian, Chinese, and Southeast Asian languages) as taken from James Doohan and Mark Lenard. Mention is made of the KLI, as well as Glen Proechel's summer Language Camps, and of the various tlhIngan Hol products available. There is even a discussion of klingonaase, which Okrand likes! (He says that it's good to see that people are realising that in an "Empire", there would be more than *one* language form.) As an added bonus, Radio Times got Okrand to translate a few "British" phrases for readers! These are the direct quotes from the article (punctuation and all)--the "English" phrases, Klingon translations, and a literal English transliteration: 1. We are U.K. Klingons! wo' tay' tlhInganpu' maH! (We are together Empire Klingons!) 2. Come along then. Ha'. (Let's go.) 3. Give us a kiss, love. HIchop, bang. (Bite me, love.) 4. Spot of tea? Dargh DaneH'a'? (Do you want tea?) 5. Beam me up, mate HIjol, jup. (Beam me up, friend.) 6. Not bloody likely! ghaytanHa' jay'! (Not &*@%# likely!) 7. Be quick about it. tugh. (Hurry up.) 8. Cricket, please. DaH ghew yIQuj. (Play bug now.) [Klingon has no word for cricket the game; ghew can mean "bug, "cootie" or "insect".] 9. Let's go to the pub. tach vI'el, HItlhej. (I am going to the bar. Accompany me!) 10. What has Lady Di done now? DaH nuq ta'pu' Day joH? (What has Lord/Lady Di accomplished now?) [The title joH, meaning "Lord", is also used for a woman, i.e. "Lady".] From: nIqolay Q I enjoy when Okrand acknowledges, in a little way now and then, that there's plenty of room for Klingonaase alongside tlhIngan Hol in the Klingon Empire. This reminds me of something I've been wondering about for a while. Eons ago, Okrand did an interview with a British magazine called Radio Times, which is mentioned and summarized in this message: http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-08-rt.txt (He mentions Klingonaase in the interview, which is why this Word of the Day reminded me of it.) But I haven't been able to find the actual text of the interview, just Voragh's summary of it. Does anybody here have the actual text of the interview floating around, or know where it can be found?
participants (3)
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Klingon Word of the Day -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer