using {je} with two different verbs
I think we'd discussed this in the past, but I don't quite remember what we'd said. If I want to say "I eat and I drink too" for "not only do I eat, but I drink too", would it be correct to say {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je} ? In the tkd example, the verb which is followed by the {je} is the same, but here the verb is different. Is there a problem using the {je} this way ? ~ bara'qa'
On 10/7/2019 9:07 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
I think we'd discussed this in the past, but I don't quite remember what we'd said.
If I want to say "I eat and I drink too" for "not only do I eat, but I drink too", would it be correct to say {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je} ?
In the tkd example, the verb which is followed by the {je} is the same, but here the verb is different.
Is there a problem using the {je} this way ?
I can't tell you there's anything ungrammatical about it. But what is the difference in meaning between *jISop 'ej jItlhutlh* and *jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je?* Why would you choose the one you're not sure about over the one you are? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 15:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I think we'd discussed this in the past, but I don't quite remember what we'd said.
If I want to say "I eat and I drink too" for "not only do I eat, but I drink too", would it be correct to say {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je} ?
In the tkd example, the verb which is followed by the {je} is the same, but here the verb is different.
What TKD example?
Is there a problem using the {je} this way ?
Going strictly by what's described in TKD, {jItlhutlh je} might be interpreted to mean "I (in addition to other people) drink", rather than "I drink (in addition to doing other things)". Is that a problem for you? -- De'vID
AFAIK there was only one example of this in TKD: (TKD 55): The noun conjunction {je} has an additional function: when it follows a verb, it means “also, too”: {qaleghpu' je} “I also saw you. I saw you too.” As in English, the meaning of such sentences is ambiguous: “I and others saw you” or “I saw you and others.” The exact meaning is determined by context. Other examples came later: Dargh vIqem je I'll bring tea also. CK jIghung je I am also hungry. PK jI'oj je I am also thirsty. PK notlh veS... 'a tugh manotlhchoH je maH War is obsolete... as we are in danger of becoming. ST6 pInaDqu' tuqlIj wInaDqu' je Glory to you and your house. ("We praise you highly; we also praise your house highly") KGT ghop luQan tajHommey. pe'laH je. [the blades] providing both a hand guard and another set of cutting edges. SP2 qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. ghoHtaH je. tIv'eghtaH je. [untranslated] (st.k, MO to SuStel 11/1996) chalqachDaq bIQaDbe' je Even in a tower you are not safe. PB Qo'noSDaq boqwI'mey nejmeH je leng qeylIS 'ej chaHvaD lut ja' Kahless also went out to search for allies across Kronos, and told them his tale. PB QIStaqDaq cholonDI' jIyIn DaH jIyIn je I am alive as I was when you left me at Kri'stak (PB) -- Voragh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> On Behalf Of De'vID On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 15:07, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote: I think we'd discussed this in the past, but I don't quite remember what we'd said. If I want to say "I eat and I drink too" for "not only do I eat, but I drink too", would it be correct to say {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je} ? In the tkd example, the verb which is followed by the {je} is the same, but here the verb is different. What TKD example? Is there a problem using the {je} this way ? Going strictly by what's described in TKD, {jItlhutlh je} might be interpreted to mean "I (in addition to other people) drink", rather than "I drink (in addition to doing other things)". Is that a problem for you? -- De'vID
SuStel:
But what is the difference in meaning between jISop 'ej jItlhutlh and jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je?
I can't say that I see any considerable difference between them. Perhaps I *feel* the "I eat and I drink too" as being slightly more emphatic, than the "I eat and I drink". But perhaps I'm influenced by greek on this. De'vID:
What TKD example?
It's the {qaleghpu' je}. De'vID:
Going strictly by what's described in TKD, {jItlhutlh je} might be interpreted to mean "I (in addition to other people) drink", rather than "I drink (in addition to doing other things)". Is that a problem for you?
Well, it's not a major problem, but what led me to the question of this thread, was whether we could use the {je} to express the "I drink (in addition to doing other things)". Just wondering, is all.. lieven:
In no example it is said that je can be used pointing at the action. If an action is listed, I'm sure that one should always use {'ej}, not {je}.
ok, thanks. Good to know. - bara'qa'
These are interesting enough to analyze one by one. On 10/7/2019 10:37 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Other examples came later:
Dargh vIqem je I'll bring tea also. CK
I'll bring tea in addition to bringing your dinner. (Previous sentence: *SoHvaD 'uQ wej vIqem*/I'll bring you dinner number three./)
jIghung je I am also hungry. PK
In addition to you being hungry, I am hungry. (Previous sentence: *jIghung*/I am hungry./)
jI'oj je I am also thirsty. PK
I addition to you being thirsty, I am thirsty. (Previous sentence: *jI'oj*/I am thirsty./)
notlh veS... 'a tugh manotlhchoH je maH War is obsolete... as we are in danger of becoming. ST6
We and war are both (soon to be) obsolete.
pInaDqu' tuqlIj wInaDqu' je Glory to you and your house. ("We praise you highly; we also praise your house highly") KGT
We commend both you and your house.
ghop luQan tajHommey. pe'laH je. [the blades] providing both a hand guard and another set of cutting edges. SP2
In addition to protecting the hand, the blades also cut. This is the first time in this list that *je* is used to join two different verbs, in the same manner as *jISop. jItlhutlh je.* The subject remains the same between the sentences.
qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. ghoHtaH je. tIv'eghtaH je. [untranslated] (st.k, MO to SuStel 11/1996)
Another case of the verb changing while the subject stays the same. The subjects are speaking, arguing, and enjoying themselves.
chalqachDaq bIQaDbe' je Even in a tower you are not safe. PB
This is apparently the first canonical instance of *je* being used for English /even./ I remember Nick Nicholas did this all the time in his Shakespearean translations, and I resisted it. The previous sentence is *SanlIj DanarghlaHbe',* so the literal translation is /You cannot escape your fate; you are also not safe (slang) in a tower./
Qo'noSDaq boqwI'mey nejmeH je leng qeylIS 'ej chaHvaD lut ja' Kahless also went out to search for allies across Kronos, and told them his tale. PB
In the previous two stanzas, Kahless grows mighty and strong, "and it fueled his will to fight." Then you get why he "also" traveled. There is very little connection between these two things.
QIStaqDaq cholonDI' jIyIn DaH jIyIn je I am alive as I was when you left me at Kri'stak (PB)
This is the first example I can think of where the difference between the two sentences is the adverbial. I lived then and I also live now. My conclusion is that *je* is not restricted to the examples in /TKD/ where it is treated like the noun conjunction is spread across two instances of the verb. That is, *qaleghpu' je *seems to be *SoH pIlegh jIH latlhpu' je* or *SoH latlhpu' je Saleghpu',* but it can be used for *qaQoypu' 'ej qaleghpu'***and if you say *wa'Hu' qaleghpu' je* then it can even be used for *cha'Hu' qaleghpu' 'ej wa'Hu' qaleghpu'.* I can't rule out the grammaticality of mayqel's suggestion, though I again question its necessity. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 07.10.2019 um 15:51 schrieb De'vID:
Going strictly by what's described in TKD, {jItlhutlh je} might be interpreted to mean "I (in addition to other people) drink", rather than "I drink (in addition to doing other things)".
I see this the same way. When I read {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je} it sounds to me like person A says {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh} and then person B answers {jISop 'ej jItlhutlh je}. So with other words, {je} following a verb means "too" in the sense of having the same situation but it does not mean {'ej}, as having a second action in a row. If that would work, you could say {jISop, jItlhutlh je}. Interpreting this from TKD, where the example {qaleghpu' je} is explained, it says: "I and others saw you" -> this means {je} refers to subject: "others, and me too" "I saw you and others." -> this means {je} refers to object: "others, and me too" In no example it is said that je can be used pointing at the action. If an action is listed, I'm sure that one should always use {'ej}, not {je}. Remember the joke: When the guard says {jI'oj je} he does not mean "in addition to being hungry, I am thirsty". What he says is "you are thristy, so am I". -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/Word/Je
participants (5)
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De'vID -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel