This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14) I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/CompoundNoun
Byneeding a space, are you suggesting slamming multiple words together to make one single word, as one does Aug Deutsch? On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:06 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14)
I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/CompoundNoun _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
*auf ... Sorry, autocorrect. On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:19 AM Christopher Kidder-Mostrom <cokidder@gmail.com> wrote:
Byneeding a space, are you suggesting slamming multiple words together to make one single word, as one does Aug Deutsch?
On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 9:06 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14)
I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/CompoundNoun _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 30.08.2018 um 16:19 schrieb Christopher Kidder-Mostrom:
Byneeding a space, are you suggesting slamming multiple words together to make one single word, as one does Aug Deutsch?
Yes, autocorrect sucks sometimes ;-) Indeed. Sorry for not being clear. What I meant is talking about compound nouns, and the difference between CN and noun-noun-constructions. Grammatically, there is not much difference, but there is. When "speaking" a language, you don't hear that difference anyway, but sometimes people insist on the difference, and sometimes Okrand even confirms the difference, althoigh he says it's not so important. May question came from a recent discussion on Facebook. Someone quoted form DeCandido's book which used a word *qo'Sor* which had been corrected by Okrand to {qo'_Sor}, i.e. with a space. So I'd like to find existing examples which "may" give a litle light into this, but without making any rules of it. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/NounNounConstruction
Another example from DeCandido is the *Mauk-to'Vor* (a death ritual), which he spelled as two words {ma' to'vor} in "Diplomatic Implausibity" but one word {ma'to'vor} elsewhere. I don't know which version - if any - Okrand vetted. -- Voragh ------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer May question came from a recent discussion on Facebook. Someone quoted form DeCandido's book which used a word *qo'Sor* which had been corrected by Okrand to {qo'_Sor}, i.e. with a space. So I'd like to find existing examples which "may" give a litle light into this, but without making any rules of it.
I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
One that comes to mind is «wabDo» ("Mach") and «wab Do» ("speed of sound") from qepHom'a' 2016 (first used in the Smithsonian thing). "As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same." //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 16:05 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: [tlhIngan Hol] spaces in nouns This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14) I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/CompoundNoun _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Since Lieven is collecting examples, I found these which may or may not be useful: (KGT 113, WRT {mevyap}): This expression, usually considered a single word, is used as a command meaning "Stop! Cease!" It comes from two Klingon verbs, {mev} (stop, cease) and {yap} (be enough, be sufficient). No doubt in the past, the locution was longer, perhaps {yImev, yap!} (Stop! It is enough!) ... {yap} (be enough) is used as if an exclamation or a single-word sentence meaning It is enough. The two words have been used in juxtaposition ({mev, yap}) for so long, they have come to be accepted as a single, though grammatically peculiar, word. If the order of the components were reversed ({yapmev}), the utterance would be meaningless. (st.klingon 5/05/1998): The Klingon word for "spoon" is {baghneQ}. Even though spoons were never typically used when eating, the word appears to have been in the language for a long time, suggesting that it may once have meant something else. One theory is that it comes from {nagh beQ} "flat stone, flat rock" and that the initial sounds of the two words, n and b, were, for some reason, transposed. This is, however, just speculation. [BTW This transposition is known in English as a "spoonerism"! <g>] HoS Hal power supply (S14) vs. {HoSHal} energy source (MKE) {peQ chem} magnetic field (two words) vs. {HoSchem} energy field, {pIvchem} warp field, {Surchem} force field. You'll also want to consider numbers: e.g. {cha'vatlh} vs. {cha' vatlh} : HIvtaHvIS toQDuj cha'vatlh wejmaH Soch vI' vagh chorgh 'uj 'ab 'oH Attack Formation Height: 82.75 M. KBoP cha'vatlh QaS yItlhap Gain 200 forces. MKE cha'vatlh ben HIq vItlhutlh I will drink Two Century Old Ale. PK (maybe it's two words here? Cf. next example) cha' vatlh ben HIq Two Century Old Wine (st.k 12/12/96; two words!) cha' vatlh ben 200 years ago. (IMO, HQ 8.3:3; two words!) cha' vatlh DIS poH two centuries. (IMO, HQ 8.3:3) cha' vatlh DIS ret two centuries ago. (IMO, HQ 8.3:3) -- Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: Felix Malmenbeck
I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
One that comes to mind is <wabDo> ("Mach") and <wab Do> ("speed of sound") from qepHom'a' 2016 (first used in the Smithsonian thing). "As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same." ________________________________________________________________________________ From: Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14) I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 at 16:33, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
I do remember though that in some of his messages, he explicetely stated when a word needs a space or not. I'd like to collect those, so I wondered if anyone else has ever asked and received an answer for a word needing a space?
One that comes to mind is «wabDo» ("Mach") and «wab Do» ("speed of sound") from qepHom'a' 2016 (first used in the Smithsonian thing).
"As a spelling convention, {wab Do} "speed of sound" is written as two words. When used as a measurement term ("Mach"), it's written as one word (wabDo). The pronunciation (and, for that matter, meaning) is the same."
Is {bIQDep} (covers most animals in the sea, but not small animals) a different thing than a {bIQ Dep} (any water creature)? Is {bIQSIp} (hydrogen) a different thing than {bIQ SIp} (water gas)? There are a number of words which appear to be compound words in the vocabulary (written without space), with meanings which are not quite what they would mean written as two separate words. -- De'vID
On Aug 31, 2018, at 00:51, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
Is {bIQSIp} (hydrogen) a different thing than {bIQ SIp} (water gas)?
I’ve actually wondered this exact thing at some point. Would “bIQ SIp” be understood to be “water vapor”, or a typo for “hydrogen”? Or perhaps something else entirely?
On 8/30/2018 10:05 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14)
The creator of the language hardly needs to worry about whether words he can make up at the drop of a hat need to have spaces in them. Okrand is also more concerned with spoken Klingon than written. His transcription system is just a description of pronunciation, and you don't usually pronounce spaces between words. So when pronounced, *HoDlupDujHomquS* is identical to *HoD lupDujHom quS*/chair of the captain's shuttlecraft./ But that doesn't make the long constructions single words. That phrase, however it's pronounced, consists of three words. If you want to specify that you meant the chair of the captain's /red/ shuttlecraft, you can just stick another word in there, whether you originally thought of the phrase as one word or three: *HoD lupDujHom Doq quS.* If *HoDlupDujHomquS* were really one word, you couldn't do that. Spaces are just punctuation. Okrand has never been concerned with punctuation. Punctuation is part of a writing system, and we know very little about the Klingon writing system, so we know very little about their punctuation. How we punctuate in a transcription system that has nothing to do with any actual Klingon writing system should be largely irrelevant. However, if everyone feels justified in making a big stink about how you have to capitalize all the letters that Okrand capitalizes, even though the system looks ridiculous, I don't see what leg you have to stand on to want to eliminate the spaces that Okrand uses consistently throughout his transcription system. Basically, if we are to start eliminating spaces because we feel like it, then we should also be able to eliminate the silly capitalization of the transcription system. There's certainly enough call to do so. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Am 30.08.2018 um 16:40 schrieb SuStel:
Spaces are just punctuation.
Agreed.
Basically, if we are to start eliminating spaces because we feel like it,
I actually thought about /adding/ spaces to see where's the difference. :-)
then we should also be able to eliminate the silly capitalization of the transcription system.
Oh, yes, I'd love to do that, but I doubt that would ever work, as we're stuck with it. So that's an entirely different topic. -- Lieven L. Litaer http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/OrthographicReform
On 8/30/2018 10:58 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
Am 30.08.2018 um 16:40 schrieb SuStel:
then we should also be able to eliminate the silly capitalization of the transcription system.
Oh, yes, I'd love to do that, but I doubt that would ever work, as we're stuck with it. So that's an entirely different topic.
It's related in that it's a writing system convention that's been imposed on us. The ability to fiddle with one would necessarily follow from the ability to fiddle with the other. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 at 16:41, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/30/2018 10:05 AM, Lieven L. Litaer wrote:
This topic is returning very often, and Okrand seems to be "not at all picky about that." (email to the mailing list from loghaD, 11/16/14)
The creator of the language hardly needs to worry about whether words he can make up at the drop of a hat need to have spaces in them.
Okrand is also more concerned with spoken Klingon than written. His transcription system is just a description of pronunciation, and you don't usually pronounce spaces between words. So when pronounced, *HoDlupDujHomquS* is identical to *HoD lupDujHom quS** chair of the captain's shuttlecraft.*
Two examples of this from the early vocabulary (TKD): yuQjIjDIvI' DIvI'may'Duj And then there's (TKDA): ra'ghomquv yejquv And later (KGT): 'Iwghargh So I think there's some hints in the early vocabulary that he had considered writing noun-noun constructions as single words, and sticking adjectival verbs to the end of the noun, at some point, but maybe changed his mind. -- De'vID
ghItlhpu' De'vID, jatlh:
So I think there's some hints in the early vocabulary that he had
considered writing noun-noun constructions as single words, and
sticking adjectival verbs to the end of the noun, at some point, but
maybe changed his mind.
{ro'qegh'Iwchab} is another example to add to those you already mention. QeS 'utlh
participants (8)
-
Christopher Kidder-Mostrom -
Daniel Dadap -
De'vID -
Felix Malmenbeck -
Lieven L. Litaer -
Rhona Fenwick -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel