Does anyone have any ideas as to how we could express the musical instrument "lyre"? There's the {HurDagh} (n) "stringed instrument (general term)", {Supghew} (n) "type of stringed instrument", {leSpal} (n) "type of stringed instrument", and {tIngDagh} (n) "type of stringed instrument". Does something of the above correspond to the lyre, or should I use the time-honored approach of writing *lyre*, and be done with it? On the other hand, if one of the above corresponded to "harp", I could shove a {-Hom} up its' rear end, and get the job done. But is there something which corresponds to "harp"? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On 9/24/2021 9:29 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas as to how we could express the musical instrument "lyre"?
There's the {HurDagh} (n) "stringed instrument (general term)", {Supghew} (n) "type of stringed instrument", {leSpal} (n) "type of stringed instrument", and {tIngDagh} (n) "type of stringed instrument".
Does something of the above correspond to the lyre, or should I use the time-honored approach of writing *lyre*, and be done with it?
Well, a lyre is a *HurDagh,* so if you could write "my stringed instrument" and be satisfied with that generality, you're good to go. We know the names of the three instruments you mention above, and we know little about them. The *Supghew* is "relatively small" and "the most commonly found." The *leSpal* is "midsize" and "fairly widely used," and the *tIngDagh* is "large" and "rarely heard except in conjunction with the performance of an opera." Hol 'ampaS claims without source or evidence that a *Supghew* is like a ukulele, but I suspect whoever wrote that note was confusing the pun of the word *Supghew* with its actual meaning in Klingon. The *tIngDagh* sounds almost exactly like a harp or a concert harp: large, and rarely heard (nowadays) except in large orchestral performances. The pun namesakes of *Supghew* and *leSpal* are clearly the ukulele and the guitar, but we cannot infer just from what's in KGT that these are the Klingon equivalents of these instruments. A lyre is kinda-sorta like a harp*Hom,* and a harp is kinda-sorta like a *tIngDagh,* so you might get away with calling a lyre a *tIngDaghHom *(maybe a *tera' tIngDaghHom*). But this is just potential resemblances through multiple stages, not a fact to stand by. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Okrand describes Klingon string instruments thus: (KGT 76): Finally, a fourth type of instrument is one with strings, a {HurDagh}. Each string is a {SIrgh}, a word also used for any thread or filament... To produce music, one may either pluck ({pang}) or strum ({yach}, which also means “stroke” or “pet”) the strings. The tone produced is varied by touching the string or strings at various points while plucking or strumming. The verb used for this, perhaps translatable as “to finger”, is the same as the one used for wind instruments: {Heng}. The word {HurDagh} refers to any of these stringed instruments, of which there are several different types, the most commonly found being the relatively small {Supghew}. The midsize {leSpal} is fairly widely used, while the large {tIngDagh} is rarely heard except in conjunction with the performance of an opera. Note that Okrand does not mention the presence (or absence) of necks, sounding/resonating bowls, tuning pegs, frets, etc. So until we have more information feel free to pick one. (Are there any hints in the mass of new words released over the past 2 or 3 years?) FYI DloraH (Roger Cheesbro) used {Supghew} for lyre in his published version of Gilgamesh – i.e. {ghIlghameS} : A Klingon Translation, 2000) – so there is precedent. -- Voragh, Ca'Non Master of the Klingons _____________________________________________________________ From: mayqel qunen'oS Does anyone have any ideas as to how we could express the musical instrument "lyre"? There's the {HurDagh} (n) "stringed instrument (general term)", {Supghew} (n) "type of stringed instrument", {leSpal} (n) "type of stringed instrument", and {tIngDagh} (n) "type of stringed instrument". Does something of the above correspond to the lyre, or should I use the time-honored approach of writing *lyre*, and be done with it? On the other hand, if one of the above corresponded to "harp", I could shove a {-Hom} up its' rear end, and get the job done. But is there something which corresponds to "harp"?
On 9/24/2021 9:53 AM, Steven Boozer wrote:
(KGT 76): Finally, a fourth type of instrument is one with strings, a {*HurDagh}*. Each string is a {*SIrgh}*, a word also used for any thread or filament... To produce music, one may either pluck ({*pang}*) or strum ({*yach}*, which also means “/stroke”/ or “/pet”/) the strings. The tone produced is varied by touching the string or strings at various points while plucking or strumming. The verb used for this, perhaps translatable as “/to finger”/, is the same as the one used for wind instruments: {*Heng}*. The word {*HurDagh}* refers to any of these stringed instruments, of which there are several different types, the most commonly found being the relatively small {*Supghew}*. The midsize {*leSpal}* is fairly widely used, while the large {*tIngDagh}* is rarely heard except in conjunction with the performance of an opera.
Note that Okrand does not mention the presence (or absence) of necks, sounding/resonating bowls, tuning pegs, frets, etc. So until we have more information feel free to pick one. (Are there any hints in the mass of new words released over the past 2 or 3 years?)
Not instruments of the plucking kind, but qepHom 2019 gave us *ngItHel,* a stringed instrument that is played with a *ngItHel naQ,* a bow. I guess that it is a class of instrument rather than a specific one, so a violin and a double bass are both *ngItHel. *Presumably, one can also *pang* the *SIrgh* of a *ngItHel. *Otherwise, I see nothing that obviously touches on this. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
Thanks, SuStel. You presume correctly: in the qepHom 2019 new word list there’s a note under {ngItHel} that “It is plucked, strummed, or bowed.” Oh, apparently {yan} is also a slang term for {ngItHel naQ}. Voragh __________________________________________________________________________ From: SuStel On 9/24/2021 9:53 AM, Steven Boozer wrote: (KGT 76): Finally, a fourth type of instrument is one with strings, a {HurDagh}. Each string is a {SIrgh}, a word also used for any thread or filament... To produce music, one may either pluck ({pang}) or strum ({yach}, which also means “stroke” or “pet”) the strings. The tone produced is varied by touching the string or strings at various points while plucking or strumming. The verb used for this, perhaps translatable as “to finger”, is the same as the one used for wind instruments: {Heng}. The word {HurDagh} refers to any of these stringed instruments, of which there are several different types, the most commonly found being the relatively small {Supghew}. The midsize {leSpal} is fairly widely used, while the large {tIngDagh} is rarely heard except in conjunction with the performance of an opera. Note that Okrand does not mention the presence (or absence) of necks, sounding/resonating bowls, tuning pegs, frets, etc. So until we have more information feel free to pick one. (Are there any hints in the mass of new words released over the past 2 or 3 years?) Not instruments of the plucking kind, but qepHom 2019 gave us ngItHel, a stringed instrument that is played with a ngItHel naQ, a bow. I guess that it is a class of instrument rather than a specific one, so a violin and a double bass are both ngItHel. Presumably, one can also pang the SIrgh of a ngItHel. Otherwise, I see nothing that obviously touches on this. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/trimboli.name__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!sr7kXRi9Ii5iEGumo9KdWAQUKj_DJFwc0UmbHrG-N0PJi7L9AL8ehxvs-V4RgyGTBwI$>
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 10:02 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
Not instruments of the plucking kind, but qepHom 2019 gave us *ngItHel,* a stringed instrument that is played with a *ngItHel naQ,* a bow. I guess that it is a class of instrument rather than a specific one, so a violin and a double bass are both *ngItHel. *Presumably, one can also *pang* the *SIrgh* of a *ngItHel. *Otherwise, I see nothing that obviously touches on this.
As you said earlier, we can't necessarily determine what these instruments are supposed to be just by their puns, but *ngItHel* written in xifan hol is "fithel", which is an archaic word for a fiddle. Additionally, the pamphlet from qepHom 2019 suggests that it refers specifically to a violin-like instrument: http://www.qephom.de/book/qepHom2019_p_15.jpg "They used one of these [*ngItHel*] in the production of the opera *'u'*." and the accompanying picture shows something violin-sized.
Note that “fiddle” is the more generic term for any small stringed instrument held at the shoulder, chest, or on a forearm and played with a bow. It typically has three or four strings. A violin is a fiddle, as is a rebec, or a pochet, though the violin-sized member of the viola da gamba family is not a fiddle because it is held like a miniature cello, upright on the lap, and it usually has six strings … because I know you were all dying to know this.
On Sep 24, 2021, at 12:10 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 24, 2021 at 10:02 AM SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote: Not instruments of the plucking kind, but qepHom 2019 gave us ngItHel, a stringed instrument that is played with a ngItHel naQ, a bow. I guess that it is a class of instrument rather than a specific one, so a violin and a double bass are both ngItHel. Presumably, one can also pang the SIrgh of a ngItHel. Otherwise, I see nothing that obviously touches on this. As you said earlier, we can't necessarily determine what these instruments are supposed to be just by their puns, but ngItHel written in xifan hol is "fithel", which is an archaic word for a fiddle.
Additionally, the pamphlet from qepHom 2019 suggests that it refers specifically to a violin-like instrument: http://www.qephom.de/book/qepHom2019_p_15.jpg <http://www.qephom.de/book/qepHom2019_p_15.jpg> "They used one of these [ngItHel] in the production of the opera 'u'." and the accompanying picture shows something violin-sized.
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because I know you were all dying to know this
You won't believe this, but I've actually wondered for quite some time about what a "fiddle" really is, so I found this information quite interesting and enlightning. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
participants (5)
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mayqel qunen'oS -
nIqolay Q -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin