It is ridiculous, and that's an understatement, that the mighty "warrior's language", doesn't have a word for "spoils". qunnoq
Am 14.09.2017 um 16:35 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
It is ridiculous, and that's an understatement, that the mighty "warrior's language", doesn't have a word for "spoils".
I'm sure there is a way to talk about that. But to ask back: What exactly is that what you're talking about? -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
A word to express the notion of "spoils of war". qunnoq On Sep 14, 2017 5:37 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.09.2017 um 16:35 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
It is ridiculous, and that's an understatement, that the mighty "warrior's language", doesn't have a word for "spoils".
I'm sure there is a way to talk about that. But to ask back: What exactly is that what you're talking about?
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Am 14.09.2017 um 16:41 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
A word to express the notion of "spoils of war".
I probably was not clear enough: I do not know what "spoils of war". My online google search tells me that's things stolen during war. So depending on the phrase, I would go with a combination of {Doch}, {nIH} or {tlhap} and {-bogh}. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net
I don't know if the word "stolen" conveys the meaning adequately. To give an example.. When the Greeks defeated the troyans, the items which were brought back from troy were the "spoils of that war". Yes, there are numerous ways to describe such a concept, but we shouldn't be in need for such workarounds. I can't imagine a warrior culture, which doesn't have a specific word, for the items gained/earned during/after a successful war. qunnoq On Sep 14, 2017 5:44 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.09.2017 um 16:41 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
A word to express the notion of "spoils of war".
I probably was not clear enough: I do not know what "spoils of war". My online google search tells me that's things stolen during war.
So depending on the phrase, I would go with a combination of {Doch}, {nIH} or {tlhap} and {-bogh}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals. If the Greeks had colonized Troy, then they wouldn't have taken any "spoils of war" since they would have had to keep it there to get their new colony started. Steal is exactly the right word. They took the property of other people. "Spoils" is just a nice way to say it without it sounding like they committed a crime. qurgh On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:51 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know if the word "stolen" conveys the meaning adequately.
To give an example.. When the Greeks defeated the troyans, the items which were brought back from troy were the "spoils of that war".
Yes, there are numerous ways to describe such a concept, but we shouldn't be in need for such workarounds.
I can't imagine a warrior culture, which doesn't have a specific word, for the items gained/earned during/after a successful war.
qunnoq
On Sep 14, 2017 5:44 PM, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.09.2017 um 16:41 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
A word to express the notion of "spoils of war".
I probably was not clear enough: I do not know what "spoils of war". My online google search tells me that's things stolen during war.
So depending on the phrase, I would go with a combination of {Doch}, {nIH} or {tlhap} and {-bogh}.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka Quvar valer 'utlh Grammarian of the KLI http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher http://www.klingonwiki.net _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones?
So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff? SuvmeH 'ej charghmeH bogh tlhInganpu'. Klingons are born to fight and conquer. vay' DaneHbogh yIchargh. Conquer what you desire. There seems to be lots of evidence that they conquer. It's not "Klingons are born to fight and raid". Conquerors don't tend to take spoils of war because they now control the land. TOS shows Klingons conquering without any talk of taking things from the local inhabitants. In DS9 we only see Klingons destroying stuff and attempting to conquer the Cardassian Union. The war didn't end until Martok stood on Cardassian. We don't see them stealing stuff from them. I don't consider Cardassian neck bones as "spoils of war". They are kill counters. We see a Klingon "raid" in Enterprise, but what they took wouldn't be "spoils of war" as there was no war. What is gained through piracy isn't what we talk about when we use the term "spoils of war". My statement was based on known Star Trek canon. It may not cover everything every Klingon ever does, but it may help explain why they don't have a specific word for profits extracted as the result of winning a war. They don't care about profits, they care about honor. qurgh
On 9/14/2017 11:27 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones?
So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff?
No, you made up the concept that Klingons don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:36 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:27 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones?
So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff?
No, you made up the concept that Klingons don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they generally don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying what we know based on what's been shown that may help explain why "spoils of war" may not be a concept that Klingons focus on enough to have a specific word for. In "Once More Unto the Breach" they do a "cavalry raid" against the Dominion and attack without taking anything. In "Errand of Mercy" when they conquer Organia but there's no evidence that they take anything from the locals. They just want the planet due to it's position. If there's Trek canon that shows Klingons invading somewhere, and then leaving with stuff, share it with us. As far as I recall I don't know any. I'm trying to give qunnoq some show background that may help him look at this from a in-universe point of view. qurgh
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they generally don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying what we know based on what's been shown that may help explain why "spoils of war" may not be a concept that Klingons focus on enough to have a specific word for. <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>
To be fair, the fact that some given behavior is considered rare or immoral doesn't mean there's no word for it. After all, English has a word for cannibalism.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:02 PM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they generally don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying what we know based on what's been shown that may help explain why "spoils of war" may not be a concept that Klingons focus on enough to have a specific word for. <http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>
To be fair, the fact that some given behavior is considered rare or immoral doesn't mean there's no word for it. After all, English has a word for cannibalism.
That's true, and they may have a word for it. My intention was not to suggest there wasn't, but a reason to why there may not be. If you're always invading places you aren't focused on taking resources back to the home world in the way the Greeks took stuff back home from Troy. It's just a different mindset. To me it's fun to hypothesis about the language based on our current Trek canon as I'm much more into Klingon stuff as a whole and not just the language by itself. :) qurgh
On 9/14/2017 11:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:36 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:27 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones?
So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff?
No, you made up the concept that Klingons don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they generally don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying what we know based on what's been shown that may help explain why "spoils of war" may not be a concept that Klingons focus on enough to have a specific word for.
In "Once More Unto the Breach" they do a "cavalry raid" against the Dominion and attack without taking anything.
In "Errand of Mercy" when they conquer Organia but there's no evidence that they take anything from the locals. They just want the planet due to it's position.
If there's Trek canon that shows Klingons invading somewhere, and then leaving with stuff, share it with us. As far as I recall I don't know any.
I'm trying to give qunnoq some show background that may help him look at this from a in-universe point of view.
I never put forward the claim that Klingons absolutely do take spoils. I simply suggested not making up the idea that they don't. I DO claim that it would be HIGHLY unbelievable if a warrior culture never took anything from anyone it raided. Even if we assumed it was not honorable to take the stuff of the vanquished, which I don't assume—"In war, there is nothing more honorable than victory"—it's not like Klingons aren't known to behave dishonorably all the frickin' time. So no, I'm not going to do a survey of Klingon episodes to find evidence of spoils, because that is not what I said in the first place. If I happen to think of something, I'll post it. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 9/14/2017 12:02 PM, SuStel wrote:
If I happen to think of something, I'll post it.
Ah, here's one. /Deep Space Nine,/ "Apocalypse Rising." Sisko, Odo, O'Brien, and Worf have been disguised as made-up Klingons and are hanging around a top-security base for a ceremony, hoping to expose Gowron as a changeling with some gizmos. At one point Odo drops his gizmo on the floor. Another Klingon picks it up and demands to know what it is. Worf steps in and says Odo is his brother, and the gizmo is a "tinkabot" [or whatever], a Vulcan toy for children. Odo says, and I quote, "The spoils of war from the raid on Arcanus." The Klingon seems to accept this. If Klingons did not raid and despoil, this excuse would never have been believed. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:13 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 9/14/2017 12:02 PM, SuStel wrote:
If I happen to think of something, I'll post it.
Ah, here's one. *Deep Space Nine,* "Apocalypse Rising." Sisko, Odo, O'Brien, and Worf have been disguised as made-up Klingons and are hanging around a top-security base for a ceremony, hoping to expose Gowron as a changeling with some gizmos. At one point Odo drops his gizmo on the floor. Another Klingon picks it up and demands to know what it is. Worf steps in and says Odo is his brother, and the gizmo is a "tinkabot" [or whatever], a Vulcan toy for children. Odo says, and I quote, "The spoils of war from the raid on Arcanus." The Klingon seems to accept this.
If Klingons did not raid and despoil, this excuse would never have been believed.
Thanks. That's another good example of another raid (I posted two different examples of raids as well). I wonder what the UT translated the Federation Standard "spoils of war" into. We have a word for raid {weH}, so it was always a given that they know about raiding, but we don't have words for "despoil" or "plunder". This could mean something, or it might not. I still think, based on what we've seen in the shows, that Klingons as a whole aren't big on plundering. They always seemed to be focused on conquering to expand the Empire, not just taking resources. The Klingons that raided the dilithium mines in Enterprise always seemed like they weren't part of the military machine, but were independent pirates in their beat-up transport ship. qurgh
On 9/14/2017 12:59 PM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
The Klingons that raided the dilithium mines in Enterprise always seemed like they weren't part of the military machine, but were independent pirates in their beat-up transport ship.
You can't selectively exclude a segment of society when you're trying to demonstrate the society doesn't do what that segment does. Being military or not doesn't matter here. We're asking whether Klingon has a word for /spoils,/ not whether the Klingon government approves of despoiling. So we're agreed that the answer to the question, what is the Klingon word for /spoils/?/,/ is not "Klingons don't despoil," yes? -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 14 September 2017 at 17:01, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They then use the resources on that planet to build more ships etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.
vubpu' jon nuchpu'. jonbe' tlhInganpu'. Just because a culture doesn't care about taking something doesn't mean that there isn't a word for it. -- De'vID
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:35 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
It is ridiculous, and that's an understatement, that the mighty "warrior's language", doesn't have a word for "spoils".
How do you know it doesn't? Do you have your own Maltz living in your basement? It's true that there is no word that means "spoils" *that we know of yet*. All that means is that Marc Okrand hasn't gotten around to asking Maltz about it. It doesn't necessarily say anything at all about Klingon culture. There was no word for "bridge" (as in the kind that goes over a river) until 2012. Does that mean Klingons didn't discover bridges until then? We don't yet know the Klingon expression for a "Heisenberg compensator" (an integral part of transporter technology), yet Klingons manage to transport themselves all over just fine.
On 9/14/2017 10:35 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
It is ridiculous, and that's an understatement, that the mighty "warrior's language", doesn't have a word for "spoils".
*veS tev* -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (6)
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De'vID -
Lieven -
mayqel qunenoS -
nIqolay Q -
qurgh lungqIj -
SuStel