On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 at 15:48, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:

SEE: raSya'ngan Russian (person) (n) (TNK)

Was this revealed explicitly, or just implied by {raSya'}? What other demonyms were revealed in TNK? -- De'vID

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 19:20, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net> wrote:

On Sep 20, 2020, at 11:54 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:

What other demonyms were revealed in TNK?

See https://www.kli.org/about-klingon/new-klingon-words/source/ and scroll to the bottom for TN!LK

I see a bunch of countries like Russia and Finland, but I don't see demonyms in the list like Russian or Finnish/Finlander. Does the word {raSya'ngan} "Russian" actually appear in the software, and isn't included in the KLI New Klingon Words list because it's considered too obviously a derivation from {raSya'} to be its own entry? Or: does it not actually appear, but is considered implicitly to be canonical by some people because it's such an obvious derivation? Do demonyms explicitly appear in TN!LK? -- De'vID

We don’t tend to add derivative terms that Okrand has not mentioned in canon to the various official word lists. The official vocabulary is large, and maintaining it does require judgement calls, and at various times, ones judgement can vary, but generally speaking, Okrand can give us original words and derivatives, or omit derivatives as he sees fit and we follow his lead, rather than expand the vocabulary, inventing canon-qoq. We could have come up with {ghojmoH} without Okrand giving it to us, and we could justify using it in our speech and writing to mean “teach", but then he could have later given us a different verb for “teach” that wasn’t derived from {ghoj}. By giving us an explicit {ghojmoH} to mean “teach”, he was informing us that we could freely use {ghojmoH} without waiting for some other verb. We could expand the vocabulary many times over by inventing derivative words, and we do invent derivative words as needed in speech and writing, but we don’t confidently present our inventions to others as official words in the vocabulary, as if we were Maltz or Okrand. In any language, we invent neologisms as needed, hoping they are good enough that we will be understood, but it takes time before such an invention proves itself worthy of addition to the global vocabulary, or just fades away because it was insufficiently adopted. Klingon is only different because there is one human on Earth who can announce if a word is “real”. Witness the famous story of {‘I’}. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Sep 24, 2020, at 5:01 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 20 Sep 2020 at 19:20, Alan Anderson <qunchuy@alcaco.net <mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net>> wrote: On Sep 20, 2020, at 11:54 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com <mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:

...

What other demonyms were revealed in TNK?

See https://www.kli.org/about-klingon/new-klingon-words/source/ <https://www.kli.org/about-klingon/new-klingon-words/source/> and scroll to the bottom for TN!LK

I see a bunch of countries like Russia and Finland, but I don't see demonyms in the list like Russian or Finnish/Finlander. Does the word {raSya'ngan} "Russian" actually appear in the software, and isn't included in the KLI New Klingon Words list because it's considered too obviously a derivation from {raSya'} to be its own entry? Or: does it not actually appear, but is considered implicitly to be canonical by some people because it's such an obvious derivation?

Do demonyms explicitly appear in TN!LK?

-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

Any place name followed by {-ngan} is a demonym. The only exception is that a {tlhIngan} apparently is not a native of any place named *tlhI* or *tlhIn* or *tlhIng*, and we have not seen any references to a {Qo’noSngan}. One assumes that this must be something like the way tera’nganpu' don’t commonly refer to the Sun as a star. Similarly, we say that those from Venus are Venusians and those from Mars are Martians, but we say we are from Earth, yet we refer to ourselves as “terrestrials” and not *Earthians*. When we talk about home, exceptions are made. Likely, it’s similar for Klingons. While TKD did give some examples of both planet names and demonyms of those from those planets, it hasn’t been a persistent trend. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Sep 20, 2020, at 11:53 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 at 15:48, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu <mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu>> wrote: SEE: raSya'ngan Russian (person) (n) (TNK)

Was this revealed explicitly, or just implied by {raSya'}? What other demonyms were revealed in TNK?

-- De'vID _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

The main point I failed to explain well is that the more distant a place and less likely you are to encounter actual people from that place with a name for themselves, the more consistent we get with our naming. There aren’t a lot of Martians around to object to being called Martians with some other native name preferred. Germans, however, don’t really consider themselves to be “Germans”, since they have a name for themselves in their own language. The same is true for pretty much any non-English-speaking country. Here on Earth, we are VERY inconsistent when expressing our equivalent of {-ngan} among all natives of anywhere on Earth. Cherokee got their English name from the French, who did a hack job of transliterating something that sounds more like “Tsalaghee”, and other native tribes have English names that were actually insulting names for them from the languages of other native tribes who were on better terms and communicated more with white people. How would you like to be from the “stinking bastard” tribe, or the “coward” tribe, or the “greedy liars” tribe? So, this suggests that since Klingons are very consistent with {-ngan} for every inhabitant of any place that isn’t {Qo’noS}, there’s a great symbolic line in the sand with Klingons on one side, and everybody else on the other side. charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

On Sep 22, 2020, at 9:29 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:

On 9/22/2020 8:47 AM, Will Martin wrote:

...

Similarly, we say that those from Venus are Venusians and those from Mars are Martians, but we say we are from Earth, yet we refer to ourselves as “terrestrials” and not *Earthians*. The first word anyone thinks of when thinking of a demonym for inhabitants of Earth is Earthling.

Other words used to describe us: Earther, Earthman, Terran, Tellurian, Gaian. I've even heard Earthan, though I think that was from a science-fiction character who wasn't sure what the right name was.

Also, before Venusian was popular in science-fiction, the word Venerean was common.

We also don't say moonian, we say lunarian, and in any science-fiction in which we say that, the inhabitants usually get ticked off if you call them lunatics. In The First Men in the Moon, they're called Selenites.

The choice of demonym isn't always place name + ian in English. Inhabitants of New York are New Yorkers. Inhabitants of Pittsburgh are Pittsburghers. Inhabitants of Vancouver are Vancouverites. Inhabitants of Vienna are Viennese.

Mars is kind of unusual in that it doesn't have a bunch of different names.

-- SuStel http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org