I was thinking the {tlhIngan maH; taHjaj}, and I don't think that it captures adequately the intended "feeling" of the original "remain klingon". The english "remain klingon", doesn't express a wish; it doesn't mean to say "may we remain klingon". It is an imperative. You walk up to someone and say "(you) remain klingon !". Or, you talk to a group of klingons (which includes you) and say "remain klingon". So, why not just say {tlhIngan SoH 'ej yIratlh !} ? Or, maybe {tlhIngan maH 'ej maratlhbej !} ? I think that the proposed methods, carry more "punch" than the wishful {tlhIngan maH; taHjaj}. Anyways, just my personal take on the matter, or as americans say "my two cents".. ~ nI'ghma
Before going into detail of the philosophy of this phrase and usage of {-jaj}, there is something else important to notice: {ratlh} means "remain, stay" in the sense of being at a place. You can tell a dog "stay". You can tell your kids to "stay at school". The verb in "Remain Klingon" means something like "continuously-be", which is something else. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
maj. I didn't know that. However, again I would choose something like: {tlhIngan maH, 'ej not machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej machoHQo'} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej paghlogh machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej Hochlogh machoHQo'} Perhaps, I would shove an {-'egh} on the {choH}, but this would depend on the scene where this phrase was said, and to whom it was directed. But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that.. Or, I would keep the taH, but without the {-jaj}: {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbej} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataH} Or {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataHbe'Qo'} ~ nI'ghma On Jan 19, 2018 1:03 PM, "Lieven L. Litaer" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Before going into detail of the philosophy of this phrase and usage of {-jaj}, there is something else important to notice:
{ratlh} means "remain, stay" in the sense of being at a place. You can tell a dog "stay". You can tell your kids to "stay at school".
The verb in "Remain Klingon" means something like "continuously-be", which is something else.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
As soon as I sent the reply, I noticed that it was marked as spam in the subject (?!?!). Anyways, in case it didn't get through, here it is again.. maj. I didn't know that. However, again I would choose something like: {tlhIngan maH, 'ej not machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej machoHQo'} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej paghlogh machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej Hochlogh machoHQo'} Perhaps, I would shove an {-'egh} on the {choH}, but this would depend on the scene where this phrase was said, and to whom it was directed. But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that.. Or, I would keep the taH, but without the {-jaj}: {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbej} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataH} Or {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataHbe'Qo'} nI'ghma On Jan 19, 2018 1:15 PM, "mayqel qunenoS" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
maj. I didn't know that.
However, again I would choose something like:
{tlhIngan maH, 'ej not machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej machoHQo'} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej paghlogh machoH} {tlhIngan maH, 'ej Hochlogh machoHQo'}
Perhaps, I would shove an {-'egh} on the {choH}, but this would depend on the scene where this phrase was said, and to whom it was directed. But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that..
Or, I would keep the taH, but without the {-jaj}:
{tlhIngan maH 'ej mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbej} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataH} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataH}
Or
{tlhIngan maH 'ej mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej reH mataHbe'Qo'} {tlhIngan maH 'ej Hochlogh mataHbe'Qo'}
~ nI'ghma
On Jan 19, 2018 1:03 PM, "Lieven L. Litaer" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Before going into detail of the philosophy of this phrase and usage of {-jaj}, there is something else important to notice:
{ratlh} means "remain, stay" in the sense of being at a place. You can tell a dog "stay". You can tell your kids to "stay at school".
The verb in "Remain Klingon" means something like "continuously-be", which is something else.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Maybe someone else knows more, or we should ask Qov why she did so. Regarding the use of {-jaj}, I think it was chosen intentionally as a parallel to {taHjaj wo'} or {tlhIngan wo' taHjaj}. Am 19.01.2018 um 12:15 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that.
FYI: the phrase is an ideology, a creed they follow. As far as Iknow, it was intentionally chosen to use {tlhIngan maH}, since many people know that already. {taHjaj} is an addition, and yes, it's a wish: may it continue. Maybe others have more details. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
Maybe someone else knows more, or we should ask Qov why she did so. Regarding the use of {-jaj}, I think it was chosen intentionally as a parallel to {taHjaj wo'} or {tlhIngan wo' taHjaj}. Am 19.01.2018 um 12:15 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that.
FYI: the phrase is an ideology, a creed they follow. As far as Iknow, it was intentionally chosen to use {tlhIngan maH}, since many people know that already. {taHjaj} is an addition, and yes, it's a wish: may it continue. Maybe others have more details. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery
It’s perhaps worth pointing out that the verb in the English “remain Klingon” is, in my opinion, not in fact an imperative. The way I read that phrase, it’s simply a bare root: it refers to the act of remaining, but does not in and of itself indicate who is doing the remaining. Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 19, 2018, at 13:25, Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Maybe someone else knows more, or we should ask Qov why she did so.
Regarding the use of {-jaj}, I think it was chosen intentionally as a parallel to {taHjaj wo'} or {tlhIngan wo' taHjaj}.
Am 19.01.2018 um 12:15 schrieb mayqel qunenoS: But since I have no idea with regards to the story of dsc, I can't decide on that.
FYI: the phrase is an ideology, a creed they follow.
As far as Iknow, it was intentionally chosen to use {tlhIngan maH}, since many people know that already. {taHjaj} is an addition, and yes, it's a wish: may it continue.
Maybe others have more details.
-- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
Some examples: jIHvaD ratlh pagh. "There is nothing left for me." (paq'batlh) qotarvaD lay'ta' 'ej batlh pab qeylIS jatlh 'e' mevDI' nuvpu' mejmoH ghaH ratlh be'nalDaj luqara' neH [Don't have the translation handy at this time] (paq'batlh) Also, the game Star Trek: Klingon contains the line {luq. ratlh.} when saying that a person is allowed to stay at a {lopno'}. This dialogue was most likely written by Okrand. To turn "Remain Klingon!" into an imperative, you could use {tlhIngan yImojHa'Qo'!}. ("Don't un-become Klingon!"). That being said, while I can see why you'd want an imperative, I quite like {tlhIngan maH; taHjaj!}; it fits in quite nicely with classic phrases such as {tlhIngan maH!} and {reH tlhIngan wo' taHjaj!} (toast). I also think it works nicely because it's often spoken in chorus; it's not T'Kuvma telling his followers to remain Klingon, but rather T'Kuvma and his followers committing in unison to remain Klingon. //loghaD ________________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2018 12:03 To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] [Spam] Remain klingon Before going into detail of the philosophy of this phrase and usage of {-jaj}, there is something else important to notice: {ratlh} means "remain, stay" in the sense of being at a place. You can tell a dog "stay". You can tell your kids to "stay at school". The verb in "Remain Klingon" means something like "continuously-be", which is something else. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.klingonisch.de http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/StarTrekDiscovery _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
On 1/19/2018 5:56 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I was thinking the {tlhIngan maH; taHjaj}, and I don't think that it captures adequately the intended "feeling" of the original "remain klingon".
The english "remain klingon", doesn't express a wish; it doesn't mean to say "may we remain klingon". It is an imperative.
The sentence is in the imperative mood, but it is clearly an expression of a desired state. Here's another example: /Buy or die!/ In English, these are two imperatives. But Klingon is happy to ignore the imperative and present this as a conditional: *bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHegh* Klingon does not have a grammatical subjunctive of the hypothetical, so it uses conditionals combined with indicative mood. If it did, if there were a verb suffix *-foo* that meant hypothetical subjunctive, then you could say *bIje'be'chugh vaj bIHeghfoo,* and it would work perfectly. And that's what you've got with *tlhIngan maH; taHjaj:* an imperative in English becomes a subjunctive in Klingon. *-jaj* produces a subjunctive mood with a /wish/ or /may /meaning. Why not translate this as an imperative? Why not translate /Buy or die/ as an imperative? Stylistic choice, most likely. There's no reason why the phrase couldn't have been *yIje' pagh yIHegh;* we know you can conjoin imperatives like this. I find Qov's *tlhIngan maH; taHjaj* more suitable to a slogan than any of your suggestions, purely on the basis of sounding good. All this goes to show that translating concepts and sounds may be more important in some contexts than reproducing grammatical features like mood. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (5)
-
Felix Malmenbeck -
kechpaja＠comcast.net -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunenoS -
SuStel