Klingon Word of the Day: nugh
Klingon Word of the Day for Monday, July 11, 2016 Klingon word: nugh Part of speech: noun Definition: society Source: TKD (97 KE, 153 EK, KGT 221 KE, KGT 257 EK) This Klingon Word of the Day is brought to you by qurgh (qurgh@kli.org).
Klingon Word of the Day for Monday, July 11, 2016
Klingon word: nugh Part of speech: noun Definition: society
nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition, and we hope that you will be pleased with the results. (Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom wa'maHDIch [2011]) (HQ 4.4): An organization dedicated to scholastic pursuits or research is a {yejHaD} "institute" or "institution" or a {yej'an} "society". The distinction between {yejHaD} and {yej'an} is not clear, though the former is usually - but not always - used for larger organizations. ... Note that {nugh} "society" has a much broader meaning: a group of people with a shared culture. Accordingly, {tlhIngan nugh} would mean Klingon society as distinguished from, say, Romulan society, but {tlhIngan yej'an} would probably be The Klingon Society, a group dedicated to the study of Klingons. TREK TRIVIA: "This is not a primitive society making progress towards mechanization" (Spock, TOS "Errand of Mercy") "Klingon culture is not in your taste?" (Troi to Pulaski, TNG "The Icarus Factor") SEE ALSO: tIgh custom (n) tayqeq civilization (n) yej'an (academic) society (n) tlham order, structure [societal] (slang) (n) Hach be developed (e.g. a civilization) (v) 'Itlh be advanced, highly developed (v) lutlh be primitive (v) P.S. There's an odd phrase in the KCD novelization, {nugh tlhegh} (lit. "society rope/line"): Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the {nugh tlhegh} he is still a boy. Some have suggested this means behavior acceptable in the eyes of the other people or, at least, those people of your social class that matter. Others suggest that this refers to the six painstik-wielding warriors in a line through which a young Klingon must pass - metaphorically called the "River of Pain" - during his {nentay cha'DIch} or Second Rite of Ascension. Cp. "party line" in English. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition, and we hope that you will be pleased with the results. (Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom wa'maHDIch [2011])
Is this canon ? Who is Vincent Van Gerven Oei ? Other than that, the first sentence goes : {nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH} But shouldn't there be an {'e'} before the {vItul jIH} ? I mean, shouldn't we have the following sentence instead ? : {nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej 'e' vItul jIH} ? mop Hurgh On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
Klingon Word of the Day for Monday, July 11, 2016
Klingon word: nugh Part of speech: noun Definition: society
nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition, and we hope that you will be pleased with the results. (Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom wa'maHDIch [2011])
(HQ 4.4): An organization dedicated to scholastic pursuits or research is a {yejHaD} "institute" or "institution" or a {yej'an} "society". The distinction between {yejHaD} and {yej'an} is not clear, though the former is usually - but not always - used for larger organizations. ... Note that {nugh} "society" has a much broader meaning: a group of people with a shared culture. Accordingly, {tlhIngan nugh} would mean Klingon society as distinguished from, say, Romulan society, but {tlhIngan yej'an} would probably be The Klingon Society, a group dedicated to the study of Klingons.
TREK TRIVIA: "This is not a primitive society making progress towards mechanization" (Spock, TOS "Errand of Mercy")
"Klingon culture is not in your taste?" (Troi to Pulaski, TNG "The Icarus Factor")
SEE ALSO: tIgh custom (n) tayqeq civilization (n) yej'an (academic) society (n) tlham order, structure [societal] (slang) (n)
Hach be developed (e.g. a civilization) (v) 'Itlh be advanced, highly developed (v) lutlh be primitive (v)
P.S. There's an odd phrase in the KCD novelization, {nugh tlhegh} (lit. "society rope/line"):
Pok has yet to complete the Second Rite of Ascension. In the eyes of the {nugh tlhegh} he is still a boy.
Some have suggested this means behavior acceptable in the eyes of the other people or, at least, those people of your social class that matter. Others suggest that this refers to the six painstik-wielding warriors in a line through which a young Klingon must pass - metaphorically called the "River of Pain" - during his {nentay cha'DIch} or Second Rite of Ascension. Cp. "party line" in English.
-- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
qunnoq :
nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition, and we hope that you will be pleased with the results. (Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom wa'maHDIch [2011])
Is this canon ? Who is Vincent Van Gerven Oei ?
Here's Felix's email from April 2012: ------------------------------------------------------- From: Felix Malmenbeck [felixm@kth.se] Date: 4/21/2012 This is the speech which Vincent Van Gerven Oei (from the publisher of paq'balth) read at qepHom wa'maHDIch [2011]. For reference, here is the most relevant portion of his subsequent English speech: tlhInganpu' quv - Dear Klingons, tlhIHvaD paq chu' wImuch 'e' bochaw'mo' chequvmoH 'ej chebelmoH. lut'a'raj Dun laDlaHmeH tera'ngan, tera'Daq tlhIngan lut'a' paq wa'DIch wIchenmoHta', lut'a' 'oH paq'batlh'e'. It is a great honor and pleasure that you have allowed us to present you with the first Terran edition of your glorious epic, the paq'batlh. nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH. lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul. The editors and I hope to have respected your rich culture and tradition, and we hope that you will be pleased with the results. DaH DIvI' Hol vIjatlhchoH. 'oy' HughwIj. [untranslated] I've written it down as best I could make it out from the text visible in this video, and what he can be heard saying: http://player.vimeo.com/video/32050802?autoplay=1 It's unclear who wrote it, but Marc strikes me as a likely candidate, since they did the presentation together. -------------------------------------------------------
Other than that, the first sentence goes :
{nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul[] HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH}
But shouldn't there be an {'e'} before the {vItul jIH}? I mean, shouldn't we have the following sentence instead?
I think that the second {'e'} before {vItul jIH} has been elided because 1) the two clauses are so short closely related (they have the same verb, if different subjects); and 2) a second {'e'} might make the listener think the sentence-as-object (SAO) referred to was {lutul HaDwI'pu'} and not {DIvuvta'}. ... DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' ('ej vItul jIH) The editors hope (and I hope) that we-have-respected-them Note that the prefix of {vuv} is {DI-} "WE [do something to] them": i.e. {HaDwI'pu' jIH je} "the editors and I". Apparently the way to do this is to repeat the verb with each subject instead of: * ... DIvuvta' 'e' wItul HaDwI'pu' jIH je The editors and I we-hope that we-have-respected-them which is how I would have translated it. It seems that my instincts would have been wrong. -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
On 7/11/2016 12:18 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
qunnoq :
Other than that, the first sentence goes :
{nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul[] HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH}
But shouldn't there be an {'e'} before the {vItul jIH}? I mean, shouldn't we have the following sentence instead? I think that the second {'e'} before {vItul jIH} has been elided because 1) the two clauses are so short closely related (they have the same verb, if different subjects); and 2) a second {'e'} might make the listener think the sentence-as-object (SAO) referred to was {lutul HaDwI'pu'} and not {DIvuvta'}.
... DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' ('ej vItul jIH) The editors hope (and I hope) that we-have-respected-them
I think it's *DIvuvta' ('e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH).* The "second sentence" of the sentence-as-object happens to be a compound sentence, but it's still a sentence. The object of the *vItul jIH* part is still *'e',* but it has been elided because it is was already used in the first sentence of the conjunction, exactly the same way that *yaS vIlegh 'ej vIqIp* elides an object noun in section 6.2.1 of TKD. Always, always, always remember that /all/ sentence-as-object constructions are simply two sentences pushed together; *'e'* and *net* are /not/ conjunctions or linking words. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
ok, thanks ! On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 8:03 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 7/11/2016 12:18 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
qunnoq :
Other than that, the first sentence goes :
{nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul[] HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH}
But shouldn't there be an {'e'} before the {vItul jIH}? I mean, shouldn't we have the following sentence instead?
I think that the second {'e'} before {vItul jIH} has been elided because 1) the two clauses are so short closely related (they have the same verb, if different subjects); and 2) a second {'e'} might make the listener think the sentence-as-object (SAO) referred to was {lutul HaDwI'pu'} and not {DIvuvta'}.
... DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' ('ej vItul jIH) The editors hope (and I hope) that we-have-respected-them
I think it's DIvuvta' ('e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH). The "second sentence" of the sentence-as-object happens to be a compound sentence, but it's still a sentence. The object of the vItul jIH part is still 'e', but it has been elided because it is was already used in the first sentence of the conjunction, exactly the same way that yaS vIlegh 'ej vIqIp elides an object noun in section 6.2.1 of TKD.
Always, always, always remember that all sentence-as-object constructions are simply two sentences pushed together; 'e' and net are not conjunctions or linking words.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
SuStel and I are actually saying the same thing, only he explained it better. Another example where the subject is elided is: romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI' a Romulan hunter-killer probe (KCD) It's a small assassination device that has two functions closely connected - {Sam} ("locate" or "seek and find") and {HoH} ("kill"); so closely that "hunter" and "killer" are hyphenated in English to show they refer to the same thing. Repeating the subject might imply two separate devices: *romuluSngan Sambogh nejwI' 'ej HoHbogh nejwI' a Romulan hunter probe and (a) killer probe -- Voragh tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a' Ca'Non Master of the Klingons From: tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org] On Behalf Of SuStel Sent: Monday, July 11, 2016 12:04 PM On 7/11/2016 12:18 PM, Steven Boozer wrote: qunnoq : Other than that, the first sentence goes : {nughraj Dun lurDechmeyraj Dun je DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH} But shouldn't there be an {'e'} before the {vItul jIH}? I mean, shouldn't we have the following sentence instead? Voragh: I think that the second {'e'} before {vItul jIH} has been elided because 1) the two clauses are so short closely related (they have the same verb, if different subjects); and 2) a second {'e'} might make the listener think the sentence-as-object (SAO) referred to was {lutul HaDwI'pu'} and not {DIvuvta'}. ... DIvuvta' 'e' lutul HaDwI'pu' ('ej vItul jIH) The editors hope (and I hope) that we-have-respected-them I think it's DIvuvta' ('e' lutul HaDwI'pu' 'ej vItul jIH). The "second sentence" of the sentence-as-object happens to be a compound sentence, but it's still a sentence. The object of the vItul jIH part is still 'e', but it has been elided because it is was already used in the first sentence of the conjunction, exactly the same way that yaS vIlegh 'ej vIqIp elides an object noun in section 6.2.1 of TKD. Always, always, always remember that all sentence-as-object constructions are simply two sentences pushed together; 'e' and net are not conjunctions or linking words. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
On 7/11/2016 1:50 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
Another example where the subject is elided is:
*romuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*
a Romulan hunter-killer probe (KCD)
It’s a small assassination device that has two functions closely connected – {Sam} (“locate” or “seek and find”) and {HoH} (“kill”); so closely that “hunter” and “killer” are hyphenated in English to show they refer to the same thing. Repeating the subject might imply two separate devices:
**romuluSngan Sambogh nejwI’ 'ej HoHbogh nejwI'*
a Romulan hunter probe and (a) killer probe
I don't think it can imply two devices. That would require a noun conjunction. What we have here is a compound sentence as a relative clause. The following would all be correct: *romuluSngan Sambogh nejwI' 'ej HoHbogh nejwI' romuluSngan Sambogh nejwI' 'ej HoHbogh rumuluSngan Sambogh 'ej HoHbogh nejwI' * The explained grammar has the second of repeated nouns elided (as per TKD 6.2.1), but common usage also shows the first of repeated nouns being elided to form a sort of "compound verb" (the third example). Even more interesting would be phrases like *yIH muSbogh tlhIngan 'ej yIH HoHbogh tlhIngan yIH muSbogh tlhIngan 'ej HoHbogh yIH muSbogh 'ej HoHbogh tlhIngan yIH muSbogh tlhIngan 'ej yIH HoHbogh yIH muSbogh tlhIngan 'ej HoHbogh tlhIngan *...and so on. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
participants (4)
-
mayqel qunenoS -
qurgh＠wizage.net -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel