expressing "body parts" {'ay'Du'} or {'ay'mey}
Suppose I want to say "reproductive organs of the human body". Of course, since we don't have a word meaning "organ" as in "organ of the human body", I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask.. {ngaghmeH 'ay'mey} or {ngaghmeH 'ay'Du'}? -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 14:05, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
Suppose I want to say "reproductive organs of the human body".
Of course, since we don't have a word meaning "organ" as in "organ of the human body",
Something for the {chabal tetlh}?
I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask..
{porgh 'ay'}?
{ngaghmeH 'ay'mey} or {ngaghmeH 'ay'Du'}?
Leaving aside the question of whether {ngaghmeH 'ay'} says what you want, for {'ay'} referring to body parts, I'd use {'ay'Du'}. We don't have any canon examples with {'ay'}, but we know from some other words that the plural suffix on a noun can change depending on what it's referring to. For example, {DIr} takes the suffix {-Du'} when still on a body, but {-mey} otherwise: https://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/1998/March/msg00545.html The plural {latlhpu'} has appeared several times in canon when referring to people: {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey.} (SkyBox 31) {yIntaH qIrq 'e' vIneH. DaSwIj bIngDaq latlhpu' vItap.} (Star Trek Constellations p.232) {latlhpu' law' pIlmoHpu' lutvam} (paq'batlh p.131) And lastly, there is a non-canon precedent: the plural {'ay'Du'} for body parts has also been used in the Tribble Song: http://klingon.wiki/En/YIHBom -- De'vID
Actually we do have some canon for {‘ay’}: 'ay'vamDaq nuHmey tIQeq Target weapons on this location. (ENT "Affliction") moQbara' 'ay'mey bota'ta' You have both finished the forms of the *mok'bara* (PB 104-5) tlhIngan toQDuj 'ay'mey tetlh Klingon Bird of Prey technical callouts (KBoP, ie. a parts list) taw ‘ay’ (city) block) (qepHom 2016) … and there is this suggestive compound noun from qepHom 2020: rem'ay' diaphragm, thoracic diaphragm [body part] I agree with De’vID that {porgh ‘ay’Du’} is the best option for now, which is consistent with: porgh body porgh Dotlh health porgh Hat body temperature porgh mIw bodily function porghQeD the scientific study of bodily functions Okrand OTOH may one day choose to connect body parts/organs somehow with {bIraqlul} *brak'lul* (redundancy in body parts). The Klingon body incorporates multiple redundancies for nearly all vital bodily functions which gives Klingon warriors enormous resiliency in battle, since almost every function in their body is duplicated in case any primary organ or system fails. From various episodes we know that Klingons have two livers, three lungs, twenty-three ribs, a redundant stomach, an eight-chambered heart, a backup for their synaptic functions, redundant neural functions, and at least two *QiVons* (whatever they are). Voragh ============================================================= From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of De'vID On Fri, 28 Jan 2022 at 14:05, mayqel qunen'oS wrote: Suppose I want to say "reproductive organs of the human body". Of course, since we don't have a word meaning "organ" as in "organ of the human body", I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask.. {porgh 'ay'}? {ngaghmeH 'ay'mey} or {ngaghmeH 'ay'Du'}? Leaving aside the question of whether {ngaghmeH 'ay'} says what you want, for {'ay'} referring to body parts, I'd use {'ay'Du'}. We don't have any canon examples with {'ay'}, but we know from some other words that the plural suffix on a noun can change depending on what it's referring to. For example, {DIr} takes the suffix {-Du'} when still on a body, but {-mey} otherwise: https://www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/1998/March/msg00545.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.kli.org/tlhIngan-Hol/1998/March/msg00545.html__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!ptzJiqqELDLvwQ19UG7WEUMXMceUTZGUv85p9Bomz1e7KGBIZWt8jlPA-CDvKzdbB1U$> The plural {latlhpu'} has appeared several times in canon when referring to people: {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey.} (SkyBox 31) {yIntaH qIrq 'e' vIneH. DaSwIj bIngDaq latlhpu' vItap.} (Star Trek Constellations p.232) {latlhpu' law' pIlmoHpu' lutvam} (paq'batlh p.131) And lastly, there is a non-canon precedent: the plural {'ay'Du'} for body parts has also been used in the Tribble Song: http://klingon.wiki/En/YIHBom<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/klingon.wiki/En/YIHBom__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!ptzJiqqELDLvwQ19UG7WEUMXMceUTZGUv85p9Bomz1e7KGBIZWt8jlPA-CDvWcXWepk$> -- De'vID
jIH:
I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask.. De'vID: {porgh 'ay'}?
Yes, indeed. It's what I had in mind actually, but I forgot to write the {porgh}. De'vID:
for {'ay'} referring to body parts, I'd use {'ay'Du'} We don't have any canon examples with {'ay'}, but we know from some other words that the plural suffix on a noun can change depending on what it's referring to
Initially, I thought too of writing {'ay'Du'}, but then I remembered the {DeSqIv} "elbow", which retains it's body part plural suffix {-Du'} even when we use it in reference to a {nevDagh}. So, I thought: "Since we've never seen {'ay'Du'} in Ca'Non, then why for the case in question don't we just write {'ay'mey}?" De'vID:
For example, {DIr} takes the suffix {-Du'} when still on a body, but {-mey} otherwise
Now I started to wonder.. If we see on the ground nevDagh handles, which have been broken off the pot, do we say {DeSqIvDu' tu'lu'} or do we say {DeSqIvmey tu'lu'}? Perhaps the body/non-body suffix is determined on the basis of whether the thing is question is still attached to the body (animal/human one, or the "body" of an item). But even if that's true, both for {DIr} as well as {DeSqIv} there's the "default" state of one usually thinking them as something attached to a body. But I can't image what the default state of {'ay'} would be, since it's a "general word", i.e. not having being given in reference to a body, or a specific thing/item/object. Confusing matter indeed. However, in tkd sayeth the god: *****quote starteth***** The suffix {-mey} cannot be used with body parts. It should be noted, however, that Klingon poets often violate this grammatical rule in order to evoke particular moods in their poetry. Thus, forms such as {tlhonmey} <nostrils scattered all about> do occur. Until the subtle nuances of such constructions are firmly grasped, however, it is suggested that students of Klingon stick to the rules. *****quote endeth***** So, if I understand this correctly, if {'ay'} could be used to express "body parts" as in {porgh 'ay'}, then obviously the correct choice would be {porgh 'ay'Du'} and not {porgh 'ay'mey}. As a result of the above, I decided that I'll be using {'ay'Du'}. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
voragh:
and there is this suggestive compound noun from qepHom 2020: rem'ay' diaphragm, thoracic diaphragm [body part]
Oh, that's good! I'd totally forgotten that. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
Am 28.01.2022 um 14:04 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
Suppose I want to say "reproductive organs of the human body".
Of course, since we don't have a word meaning "organ" as in "organ of the human body", I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask..
{ngaghmeH 'ay'mey} or {ngaghmeH 'ay'Du'}?
Setting aside if {'ay'} is a good word... I'm sure it is {'ay'mey}, simply because {'ay'} is not a known body part. Some minor confirmation is that Okrand said that the word {reD} also takes the standard suffix, even when referring to the {reD} of a body. -- Lieven L. Litaer aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany" http://www.tlhInganHol.com http://klingon.wiki/Word/-ay-
lieven:
I'm sure it is {'ay'mey}, simply because {'ay'} is not a known body part. Some minor confirmation is that Okrand said that the word {reD} also takes the standard suffix, even when referring to the {reD} of a body.
I've obviously forgotten that too.. On the other hand though, perhaps there's an explanation, since a side of the body is just a surface/area, and not an organ. But if {'ay'} could be used as a part of a noun-noun construction to indicate "body part" as in {porgh 'ay'}, then it would be in reference to a structure performing a function, instead of just an area. Oh, well.. I guess the only way to know for sure, is if 'oqranD clarified the matter, or created a word for "organ". -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
As Lieven pointed out, {reD} is a non-body part word used for a body part thing: (qepHom 2021): "The word {reD} can be used to refer to the (left or right) side of a body, but it is not a body part." OTOH body part words used for non-body part things occasionally do take {-mey}: (Lieven, qepHom 2018, 11/22/2018): I'll get the longer answer later, but basically, Okrand said that "generally" body part words that are used for non-body part things still take the body part suffix, as in {DeSqIv[Du']} on a pot and {Ho'Du'} on a wheel. There are very few exceptions where the meaning or the connection to the body has been lost, so one uses {-mey}, such as {nebmey} on rockets. nebDu' beaks (anatomy) (qep'a' 2016) nebmey nozzles (on rockets, hoses, etc.) (qep'a' 2016) Another example: noqDu' nipples (anatomy) (qep'a' 2016) noqmey nipples (on bottles, etc.) (qep'a' 2016) (De'vID < MO, 1/22/2019): {nagh DIr} is considered a body part. The plural takes {-Du'}. That's the case whether the shell is still on the animal or not. But if the shell (off the animal) is broken up and a piece or pieces of it are used for something (like turtle shells here on Earth have been used for guitar picks), the plural takes {-mey}. (Okrand, st.klingon 3/23/1998): The general plural suffix -mey is not used with body parts (except by poets, of course). Thus {DIrmey} "skins" and {veDDIrmey} "pelts" are not (or, perhaps better, are no longer) body parts, but rather are materials from which things (clothing or blankets, for example) may be made. They've lost their association with the creatures that originally had them. [...] If there still is that association, that is, if the creatures still have their skin, or if it's a creature that has multiple skins (maybe layers, maybe different kinds of skin on different parts of the body), or if the skin just came off either by natural causes (as with Alan Anderson's snakes) or by the creatures being, well, skinned, then the body-part plural suffix {-Du'} may be used: {DIrDu'}. Another example: Hampong DIr scab (n) (qep’a’ 2020) - “For the plural, use {–mey}, even if the scab is still attached” (qep’a’ 2020) Voragh -----------------------------------Original Message----------------------------------- From: Lieven L. Litaer Am 28.01.2022 um 14:04 schrieb mayqel qunen'oS:
Suppose I want to say "reproductive organs of the human body".
Of course, since we don't have a word meaning "organ" as in "organ of the human body", I choose the next best thing I can find which is {'ay'}. So I ask.. {ngaghmeH 'ay'mey} or {ngaghmeH 'ay'Du'}?
I'm sure it is {'ay'mey}, simply because {'ay'} is not a known body part. Some minor confirmation is that Okrand said that the word {reD} also takes the standard suffix, even when referring to the {reD} of a body.
On 1/28/2022 4:09 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
As Lieven pointed out, {reD} is a non-body part word used for a body part thing:
(qepHom 2021): "The word {reD} can be used to refer to the (left or right) side of a body, but it is not a body part."
Well, sure. My left side is not a body part, even in English. The term "body part" doesn't just mean "part of the body"; it means a specific organ or structure. -- SuStel http://trimboli.name
If you want a generic term for “organ” before Okrand gives us actual vocabulary for it, you might lean towards use of {porgh mIw}, since organs tend to be defined as much for their function as for their location or shape or any other feature. {porgh mIw peSwI’Du’} ~= “organs”?
On Jan 28, 2022, at 4:17 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 1/28/2022 4:09 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
As Lieven pointed out, {reD} is a non-body part word used for a body part thing:
(qepHom 2021): "The word {reD} can be used to refer to the (left or right) side of a body, but it is not a body part."
Well, sure. My left side is not a body part, even in English. The term "body part" doesn't just mean "part of the body"; it means a specific organ or structure.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
I definitely read {porgh mIw} as "bodily function". And while we do often categorize body parts in terms of function we wind up with very different lists when we list bodily functions and body organs. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> ________________________________ From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:21:24 PM To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org <tlhingan-hol@kli.org> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] expressing "body parts" {'ay'Du'} or {'ay'mey} If you want a generic term for “organ” before Okrand gives us actual vocabulary for it, you might lean towards use of {porgh mIw}, since organs tend to be defined as much for their function as for their location or shape or any other feature. {porgh mIw peSwI’Du’} ~= “organs”?
On Jan 28, 2022, at 4:17 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 1/28/2022 4:09 PM, Steven Boozer wrote:
As Lieven pointed out, {reD} is a non-body part word used for a body part thing:
(qepHom 2021): "The word {reD} can be used to refer to the (left or right) side of a body, but it is not a body part."
Well, sure. My left side is not a body part, even in English. The term "body part" doesn't just mean "part of the body"; it means a specific organ or structure.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
charghwI':
{porgh mIw peSwI’Du’} ~= “organs”?
Perhaps we could say {porgh mIw turwI'} for "performer of a bodily function". But the problem would be that often one bodily function is carried out by more than one organs. As in digestion where the whole digestive tract composed of many organs is involved. -- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ
This is only true because we combine sub-functions, naming them by collection. Think of the difference between an internal combustion engine and a turbojet. The internal combustion engine (like in your car) uses batch processing so that everything tends to happen in one place (the cylinder) at different times. Intake, compression, ignition/combustion, exhaust. The jet has an air inlet where intake happens, a set of compressor turbines where compression happens, a combustion chamber where ignition and combustion happens, and an exhaust nozzle/exhaust turbine where exhaust happens. If the jet engine were alive, the intake, compressor, combustion chamber, and exhaust nozzle would be organs, but you might call the function they all do together “propulsion”. The boundaries are arbitrary. My point is that an arm is not an organ. Lose an arm and life might become a bit more challenging, but all your bodily functions continue, unaffected, assuming the wound heals before you bleed out. Lose a heart, or lungs, or stomach, or intestines, you have serious problems dealing with the loss of a bodily function. Of course, the appendix and tonsils are organs, and we’re not quite sure what they do, and we get along fine without them, so there are exceptions to every rule. I was just trying to help, figuring that if focusing on function didn’t work as I suggested, perhaps someone else might find a more acceptable term. I confess failure at an effort that no one else, so far, has succeeded, so I still think it was worth the effort. Apparently, Maltz doesn’t work in the medical profession, or we’d be better informed. pItlh charghwI’ ‘utlh (ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)
On Jan 29, 2022, at 3:35 AM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
charghwI':
{porgh mIw peSwI’Du’} ~= “organs”?
Perhaps we could say {porgh mIw turwI'} for "performer of a bodily function".
But the problem would be that often one bodily function is carried out by more than one organs. As in digestion where the whole digestive tract composed of many organs is involved.
-- Dana'an https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/ <https://sacredtextsinklingon.wordpress.com/> Ζεὺς ἦν, Ζεὺς ἐστίν, Ζεὺς ἔσσεται· ὦ μεγάλε Ζεῦ _______________________________________________ tlhIngan-Hol mailing list tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
participants (7)
-
De'vID -
janSIy . -
Lieven L. Litaer -
mayqel qunen'oS -
Steven Boozer -
SuStel -
Will Martin