qurgh and SuStel, thank you for taking the time to explain all this !
..once more I came across an area of grammar, I was totally unaware of ! thank qeylIS for writing today's "the passing", during which I came across this matter.
After reading your replies, I think I understand how this works;
the subject of the {-moH}ed verb causes the {-vaD}ed noun to do whatever the verb says. the question however is "what prefix goes on the {-moH}ed verb. and seemingly this is determined like this: the one who causes the action is the subject, and whatever is before the {-moH}ed verb is the object.
So, lets write some examples:
they caused us to see the cat
maHvaD vIghro' luleghmoH
they made you (plural) correct the student
tlhIHvaD ghojwI' lulughmoH
you (plural) made them touch the cat
chaHvaD vIghro' boHotmoH
we made you (plural) touch the cat
tlhIHvaD vIghro' wIHotmoH
we made you (plural) touch the cats
tlhIHvaD vIghro'mey DIHotmoH
are the above correct ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 12/6/2016 1:16 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
there is something I noticed on {-moH}.
If we use it on an intransitive verb it makes it transitive:
jISaQ I cry
qaSaQmoH I make you cryBut what if we place it on a transitive ?
jIchoH I change
qachoH I change you
qachoHmoH I cause you to changejIyuv I push
qayuv I push you
qayuvmoH I cause you to pushI don't know how to describe it in grammar terms, but it seems that as soon as we place the {-moH} on a transitive verb, then the object can't "do what the verb says to someone or something else".
If I write qayuvmoH for I make you push, then I may obviously be saying "I make you push", but how do I say "I make you push the table" ?
raS qayuvmoH ? Is this correct ? can we have the {raS} just sitting there unmarked ?
Shame on you for not paying attention!
The current thinking, supported by a couple of canonical sentences, seems to be that your desired sentence would be: SoHvaD raS vIyuvmoH.
My explanation for this is that one must do more than blindly follow syntax; one must examine the semantic role each noun is playing. There is an action, yuv. Someone pushes the table, raS yuv. I cause the table to be pushed, raS vIyuvmoH (doesn't say who pushes it; I cause the action so I'm the subject and it's done to the table so the table is the object). I cause you to push it, SoHvaD raS vIyuvmoH; you're the receiver of what I did (cause the pushing).
We can play this game with other sentences:
quHDaj qaw he remembers his heritage
quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj the sash reminds (someone) of his heritage
ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj the sash reminds him of his heritage
yIn Hegh je ghoj he learns life and death
yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH I teach life and death (to someone)
ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH I teach him life and deathGuess what! Those are based on canon sentences:
tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH He wears it proudly as a reminder of his heritage. (SkyBox S20)
petaQvam vIqopbej / QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH I will bring this p'takh to justice / And teach him life and death
Now remember, and this is extremely important: this is perhaps the most controversial, war-causing, pain-inducing topic on this list EVER. Be very careful when talking about it. Think before you post.
-- SuStel http://trimboli.name
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org