On 12/13/2016 11:05 AM, Lieven wrote:
Am 13.12.2016 um 15:32 schrieb SuStel:

/TKD/ only describes using *-qu'* in this way. Further canonical
examples have shown us *-be'* and *-Ha'.* None has ever shown us
multiple suffixes, though I would have no problem accepting *Duj
tInqu'be'* for /not very big ship./

Agreed. Using both -qu' and -be' is confirmed in TKD.

Although we have never seen any other verb suffixes, I would not at all
be surprised to discover that type 6 verb suffixes are allowed,

I think TKD is very clear on that:
"If a Type 5 noun suffix is used, it follows the verb, which, when used to modify the noun in this way, can have no other suffix except the rover -qu'."

This still does leave some space for interpretation, like "no other suffix, only when Type 5 suffix is used"(?) - but I think that if one could have been allowed to add oter suffixes, there would be an example.

It doesn't say that only -qu' may be used when there is a type 5 noun suffix on it; it says that an adjectival verb can have no suffix besides -qu', and any type 5 suffix for the noun goes at end of the adjectival verb. The wording is confusing on this point, but unambiguous.

Since Okrand has obviously violated the only-qu' rule many times, it is clearly non-operative, though its sense of restriction remains with us since it's not clear exactly what suffixes are allowed on such verbs.


Next, TKD states that type 6 suffixes "show how sure the speaker is about what is being said."
I read this is focussed on the verb of the OVS-phrase, the "action". When used as an adjective, the verb is no longer doing an "action" in the phrase, and besides, it fits the object or subject slot.

So you wouldn't allow words like Quchlaw' he seems to be happy or tujbej it is definitely hot? Of course you would, yet these are no more "actions" than the verbs in tlhIngan Quch happy Klingon and QuQ tuj hot engine.

The restriction on adjectival verb suffixes is a somewhat arbitrary one, probably because lots of suffixes make no sense on such verbs. We started with "only -qu'," then got a few more that made sense. Without information from Okrand, we cannot conclude with any certainty that unattested suffixes may be used.


So finally, I think that a socalled *Duj tInlaw'* is really a {DujHey tIn}, *Duj tInbej* is really a {Dujna' tIn}.

If you insist on focussing on the verb, say {tInlaw'bogh Duj}.


*Duj tInlaw' means a ship that is apparently big; DujHey tIn means a big thing that might be a ship. Not the same thing.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name