On 7/22/2019 10:19 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
On
7/22/2019 2:52 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
This is a summery of all the new information we gained.
Most of it is also included on the new words list, but I
compiled it all together for ease of reference.
Hoy is be refined, be fancy, be sophisticated
[pertaining to culture]. Does that bracketed note
apply only to the final synonym, sophisticated, or
the whole definition?
That is, does Hoy mean be refined, fancy, not
boorish or be refined in a cultural sense, fancy
in a cultural sense, sophisticated in a cultural sense?
I suspect the bracketed note applies to
"sophisticated" to distinguish it from the sense of "advanced"
(as in "This engineering is quite sophisticated").
The original request on the KLI page
(which I understand MO was provided with) was "Having
characteristics associated with the upper class, possibly due
to being particularly elaborate or due to arbitrarily
culturally valued attributes. 'We are dinner at a fancy
restaurant two nights ago.' 'Only a sufficiently sophisticated
individual will appreciate the performance.'"
Your first paragraph is the argument in favor of be refined,
fancy, not boorish, while your second paragraph is the
argument in favor of restricting the verb entirely to a cultural
sense.
For instance, could I say 'uSqan Hoy refined iron,
or would that only refer to culturally fancy iron? Given the
original request, I suspect not, but the written clarification on
the new words page is poorly positioned.
If the intent of the requester is worth something, the word as I was requesting it wouldn’t make sense for {'uSqan Hoy} unless perhaps you were referring to a finely crafted blade or piece of art made from iron.
I don’t see nIqolay’s observations as being contradictory: the first term, “refined” could still be restricted to a cultural sense (as the context of the other glosses might suggest) even if there’s no explicit note saying so. I just wanted to be clear that the word isn’t meant to refer to things like refined sugar, that an oil refinery isn’t a {HoymoHwI'}, that fancy ketchup isn’t {tomat naH vIychorgh Hoy}, that a “sophisticated” artificial intelligence isn’t necessarily going to be culturally sophisticated, etc. I couldn’t find an English word that captured the meaning I intended that didn’t also have another meaning that communicates a different idea.
FWIW, the original idea I was trying to communicate when I made the request was “elevated”, also in a cultural sense, which for obvious reasons I didn’t think could be communicated with {jenmoHlu'bogh}. I wanted to talk about a food trailer that describes its food as “elevated vegan cuisine” but couldn’t think of the right word. In the moment, I used {Soj le'qu'}, which is probably sufficient, and some time later I realized that {Soj qub} would probably have been even better, but I made the request anyway since I figured it could be useful to have a way to describe culturally refined/fancy/sophisticated things that aren’t food. And I think I like {Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy} better for this particular place anyway, since it’s not exactly {Soj qub}; the atmosphere is quite casual.
toH.
teqSaS (teHaS?) mon DaSuchchugh 'ej Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy DawaH DaneHchugh, vaj “bISro vonIS” yIghoS. 'ej pa' bISopchugh, HISovmoH, qamuv vIneHqu'mo'!
https://www.bistrovonish.com/