On 7/6/2017 11:14 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:

"Even though tkd says that {-be'} cannot be used with imperatives, it seems that this means only that it cannot be used to form negative imperatives. For example, a sentence such as {HIleghbe'moH} seems to be possible"

I can't understand this. Isn't the {HIleghbe'moH} a negative imperative ? Doesn't it mean "make me not see !" ?

Am 06.07.2017 um 17:28 schrieb SuStel:

boQwI' is wrong.

Don't be so strict; just because boQwI' mentions something we have no rue for, it does not mean that it's wrong. As you said, there is no example for or against this, so you cannot be sure at all.

There sure is an example against this: TKD's explicit pronouncement that -be' is not used with imperatives. And since you can't prove a negative, only pronouncements could possibly lead to that rule.

Maybe Okrand meant it only can't be used to negate the sense of do this! but he didn't say that.

I don't know how the creator came to that conclusion. It would be convenient if we could, but TKD prohibits it and I don't think we've ever seen a counterexample.

TKD does not explicitely prohibit THIS example, it prohibits using -be' in the puporse of a negative imperative.

TKD says "The suffix -be' cannot be used with imperative verbs." It does not draw the distinction you are making. It does explicitly prohibit this example. Whether or not that's what Okrand meant is another story.

What we can be sure of is that {HIleghmoHbe'} is forbidden, because the -be' negates the command {HIleghmoH}, so we need -Qo' here.

So how about *yIta'vIpbe'?

If I'd stick to the rules, I should just replace the be' with the -Qo' and get {HIleghQo'moH}... but wait: "Unlike {-be',} the position of {-Qo'} does not change" (TKD) so it comes to the end: {HIleghmoHQo'} - but that is something else, right?

TKD doesn't say you replace -be' with -Qo'.

Just like the note in boQwI', I am also convinced that the following phrases should be grammatical:

{HIleghmoH} "make me see"
{HIleghbe'moH} "make me not see"
It's different from "Don't make me see", which is different in English as well.
{HIleghbe'moHQo'} "Don't make me not see"

It makes perfect, logical sense. But it's forbidden by TKD. Until such time as Okrand gives us an unambiguous example, or delivers a pronouncement in one direction or the other, the only evidence that exists says you can't do this.

Anyway, to avoid this, use -Ha' instead. It can be use in imperatives.

But it doesn't mean the same thing. HIleghHa'moH means make me unsee it, not make me not see it.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name