<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Dajchu’.</div><div><br></div><div>Most of this sounds like Okrand extending what he started with {qeylIS lISlaHbe’bogh vay’}. It’s not really “restrictive”, in that there is only one Kahless, but… </div><div><br></div><div>It’s like the relative clause is another way of addressing the head noun; another statement about the head noun that you really can’t pass by without saying. The relative clause is as important to state as the main clause.</div><div><br></div><div>I’m not declaring a truth here. I’m chewing on an idea. Okrand’s use of this seems consistent. It’s like “one can’t forget him” is part of his name and identity. Picard, similarly has so much significance as Arbiter of Succession that you can’t just say something about him without bringing up this role. His name would carry less weight if you didn’t pack that on to it.</div><div><br></div><div>That’s the root of it. Just like a suffix like {-na’} wakes you up to the significance of what might otherwise be a common noun, Okrand’s use of the Relative Clause seems to function as a punch to wake you up to the significance of the Head Noun. It may or may not identify the Head Noun in the restrictive sense, but it does turn up the volume in terms of significance.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe this is simply an accidental pattern and parenthetical Non-Restrictive Relative Clauses are fine in Klingon, but we haven’t seen that happen yet. It’s like Klingon doesn’t obviously have the linguistic line drawn between restrictive and non-restrictive relative clauses. The line might happen in a different place, and only one side of this different line is obviously supported.</div><div><br></div><div>Does this make sense to anyone else?</div><br><div>
<meta charset="UTF-8"><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;"><div>pItlh</div><div><br></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div><br></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Feb 2, 2023, at 7:52 PM, nIqolay Q via tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 11:15 AM SuStel via tlhIngan-Hol <<a href="mailto:tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org">tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div>On 2/2/2023 11:02 AM, Will Martin via
tlhIngan-Hol wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">I’m sure
our canon experts will be happy to clarify whether or not we’ve
been given license to use Relative Clauses for parenthetical
statements about the Head Noun.</blockquote><p>You're describing the difference between restrictive and
nonrestrictive clauses. I believe we still haven't seen
nonrestrictive relative clauses.</p><p>To say <i>Our leader, who is fond of knitting, commands us to
attend the meeting,</i> you apparently can't say <b>qepDaq
majeS 'e' ra' nIq 'e' tIvbogh DevI'ma'.</b> <br></p></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Is this confirmed anywhere? My first feeling would be that context would dictate whether the leader's fondness for knitting is an important distinction or merely a parenthetical. I found a few quotes from the paq'batlh which seem like nonrestrictive relative clauses, assuming I've interpreted that term correctly. (One common thing from the examples is that the English translations usually don't use a relative clause of either kind, which might make it harder to determine what the intent of the sentence was.)</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">All quotes are from the paq'batlh, 2nd edition:</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b>SaqSub’e’ muSHa’bogh</b><br><b> pawmeH leng qeylIS</b><br><b> HuDmey Sal ghIq ghIr</b><br><i>And Kahless traveled to</i><br><i> His beloved Saq’sub,</i><br><i> Over the mountains,</i><br></blockquote>paq'raD, canto 7, lines 1-3, pages 120-121<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b>pIraqSIS maS bIngDaq</b><br><b> pIgh rur SaqSub chIm</b><br><b> choSlu’pu’bogh</b><br><i>The Saq’sub lay</i><br><i> Empty and desolate,</i><br><i> Under the Praxis moon.</i><br></blockquote>paq'raD, canto 8, 1-3, pages 122-123</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Contextually, we know there's only one Saq'sub (or at least there's only one that's in any way relevant to the story), so <b>SaqSub’e’ muSHa’bogh</b> ("Saq'sub which Kahless loved") and
<b>SaqSub chIm </b><b>choSlu’pu’bogh</b> ("empty Saq'sub which had been deserted") must be parentheticals. <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><b>vaj matlhutlhjaj<br> ghe’torDaq ghaHtaHbogh vavwI’’e’ wIquvmoHjaj<br> Heghbogh loDnI’wI’ wIquvmoHjaj!</b><br><i>Let us drink then<br> To my father in Gre’thor<br> And the brother I once had.</i></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">paq'yav, canto 10, lines 13-15, pages 88-89 <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">This quote has the same situation. Contextually, Kahless only has the one father and the one brother, so these sentences aren't restricting the meaning any further.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b>SIqral bIQtIqDaq<br> joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu’ qem qeylIS<br> bIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH</b><br><i>Kahless takes Molor’s hearts,<br> Still beating, to the river Skral,<br> He sets them free in the crimson water.</i><br></blockquote>paq'raD, canto 23, lines 46-48, pages 166-167</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Molor doesn't have any non-beating hearts to contrast with. The English translation, "still beating", is set off with commas, further suggesting that it's intended to be a parenthetical comment.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Looking at the Skybox cards, I found another example (which is a pretty clear example, and makes me wish I'd found it before I started writing this post):</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><b>juHqo'Daq vaS'a' tu'lu'. ngoch luchermeH 'ej wo' San luwuqmeH pa'<br>ghom tlhIngan yejquv DevwI'pu'. DaH che' ghawran. yejquv DevwI' moj<br>ghawran 'e' wuqta' cho' 'oDwI' Dapu'bogh janluq pIqarD HoD.</b><br><i>On the Homeworld, there is a great hall where the leaders of the Klingon<br>High Council meet to determine policy and decide upon the fate of the<br>Empire. Gowron™ currently presides, named leader of the High Council<br>by Captain Jean-Luc Picard,™ who was acting as Arbiter of<br>Succession.</i></div></blockquote><div><a href="http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-sbx-s25.txt">http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-sbx-s25.txt</a><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"> <br></span></div><div><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">The "who was acting as Arbiter of Succession" clause in the final sentence is set off with a comma in the translation, suggesting it's intended as a parenthetical. Semantically, it can't be there to distinguish from some other Captain Jean-Luc Picard.<br></span></div></div></div>
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