<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"></div><span>De'vID:</span><blockquote style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 10px;border-left:3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200);font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;border-top-color:rgb(200, 200, 200);border-right-color:rgb(200, 200, 200);border-bottom-color:rgb(200, 200, 200);color:rgb(102, 102, 102)"><div style="font-family:Arial"><p style="font-size:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named.</p><p style="font-size:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br></p><p style="font-size:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.</p><p style="font-size:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.</p><p style="font-size:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif">latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.</p></div></blockquote><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)"></span><br></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)">I agree with this. However, the situation was that the festival has only one name that happens to be plural (perhaps similar to the United States example you gave).</span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)">Specifically, Dana'an's question has two separate questions combined:</span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><ol style="margin:0px;padding:0px 0px 0px 2em;font-size:1em"><li><span><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:14px;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)"></span>Are foreign plural words treated as grammatically singular or plural?</span></li><li>If a plural word is a name and we refer to it as a name, is it grammatically singular or plural?</li></ol></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(34, 34, 34)">Answer to neither of these questions is obvious.</span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial">For the first question, given that in Klingon irregular plurals are treated as singular, I think it might well be that foreign plural words are also treated as singular. There is no evidence for this possibility either. It is also possible that Klingons recognize the foreign plural form and treat the word grammatically plural.</span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial">For the second question, I don't think we have enough evidence for either direction either.</span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial"><br></span></div><div style="font-family:system-ui, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(34, 34, 34);font-family:Arial">Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio</span></div><div class="protonmail_quote">
------- Original Message -------<br>
On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 20.51, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite">
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<p>> <font color="#222222" face="Arial" size="2" style="font-family: Arial, serif, "EmojiFont";"><span style="font-size:14px;">In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.</span></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I think this can vary quite a lot. For example, you'd normally say "The United States is a country.", rather than "The United States _are_ a country."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>With sports teams, on the other hand, one tends to use the plural form even when the team name is singular:</p>
<p>"The Chicago Bulls are gonna win; they're the best."</p>
<p>"Nuh-uh, Miami Heat are way better; they're gonna win for sure."</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>... although I'm pretty sure that you'd still use the singular form if you were specifically referring to
<i>the team's name</i>, rather than to <i>the team itself</i>.</p>
<p>"'The Chicago Bulls' is the name of a popular basketball team. Miami Heat are also a basketball team."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of
things being named.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.</p>
<p>tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.</p>
<p>latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>//loghaD<br>
</p>
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<div dir="ltr" id="divRplyFwdMsg"><font color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of Iikka Hauhio <fergusq@protonmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:56:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural</font>
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<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">SuStel:</div>
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<p style="margin:1em 0px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:system-ui, sans-serif">Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.</p>
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<p style="margin: 1em 0px;"><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">That isn't clear. For example, in Finnish, foreign plurals aren't acknoledged. Either the plural loaned word is treated as singular, or the foreign plural
suffix is replaced with the Finnish plural suffix and then the word is a native plural word. In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin: 1em 0px;">SuStel:</p>
<p style="margin: 1em 0px;"></p>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200); border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<div><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:system-ui, sans-serif;display:inline !important">Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning
a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.<br>
</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#222222"><b>YvaD X ponglu'</b> doesn't mean "one names the Xs". I know that "name, call" is the gloss, but the grammar of
<b>pong</b> does not match those English words. There is no English word that matches the grammar, but perhaps "is used" is somewhat similar in grammar: "[the name] X is used for Y". I imagine that the name doesn't even need to be a noun phrase, it could be
a sentence: <b>paqvaD «qul naj» ponglu'</b>. In my opinion, if we imagine the name to be a kind of quote, whatever grammar it has is irrelevant from the point of view of the outer sentence.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#222222"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#222222">Of course, since we have know info on this matter, it could very well work the way you suggest. I'm only trying to give a plausible reason why it could work the other way. You must be careful not to make claims that sound
like facts when they are in reality speculation.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio</div>
<p></p>
<div class="protonmail_quote">------- Original Message -------<br>
On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 17.46, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" class="protonmail_quote">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">SuStel:</div>
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rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
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<div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:system-ui, sans-serif">Panatheneans,</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:system-ui,
sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span>
</span>being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.<span>
</span></span><b style="color:rgb(0,
0, 0);font-family:system-ui, sans-serif">yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.</b><br>
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</blockquote>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span><b style=""><br>
</b></div>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular
<b>ponglu'</b>. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be
<b>luponglu'</b>), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be
<b>ponglu'</b>)?</span></div>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=""><font face="Arial" color="#222222">In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word.</font></div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, I should have used the <b>lu-.</b></p>
<p>Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
<br>
</p>
<p>Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the
label with which you name it.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a target="_blank" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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