<div style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;">SuStel:</div><div style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200); border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><div style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important">The<span> </span></span><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">paq'batlh</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>sentence is problematical.<span> </span></span><b style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">chu'DI' maS 'ej qaStaHvIS ram</b><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif"><span> </span>when the moon is new and during the night.</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>The English original is<span> </span></span><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">on the night of the new moon.</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>What made Okrand decide to mix<span> </span></span><b style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">-DI'</b><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>and<span> </span></span><b style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">-vIS</b><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>here? The moon is (presumably) new all night, so it's not like it's describing the moon<span> </span></span><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">becoming</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>new during the night. I return to wondering whether Okrand was letting his English influence his choice of Klingon grammar: in English you might say<span> </span></span><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">during a night when the moon was new,</i><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;display:inline !important"><span> </span>but you'd be less likely to say<span> </span></span><i style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif">during a night while the moon was new.</i><br></div></blockquote><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span><i style=""><br></i></div><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Maybe Okrand tried to get the "as soon as" interpretation: <i>as soon as the moon is new, during the night</i>. There is no single point of time when the moon becomes new, it just happens that one night when the moon comes above the horizon, it's new, so <b>-choH</b> might be a little odd here. Using <b>-taHvIS</b> wouldn't get the "as soon as" interpretation. Though the English translation doesn't have the "as soon as" part, so I'm not sure it's what Okrand intended.</span></div><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br></span></div><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">The words "when" and "while" confuse me a bit as Finnish doesn't have them, they are both translated with the same word "kun".</span></div><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br></span></div><div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio</span></div><div class="protonmail_quote">
------- Original Message -------<br>
On Thursday, April 7th, 2022 at 17.21, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/7/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial">Through my corpus
search I found these examples:</font></div>
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial">paq'batlh:</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200);
border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color:
rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial"><b><span>chu'DI'</span></b>
<span>maS</span> <span>'ej</span> <span>qaStaHvIS</span> <span>ram</span></font></div>
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial"><span>nuHmeyDaj</span>
<span>may'luchDaj</span> <span>nIv</span> <span>je</span></font></div>
<div style=""><font color="#222222" face="arial"><span>yIr</span>
<span>qeylIS</span><br>
</font></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span><font color="#222222" face="arial"><span><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">TKW:</span></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200);
border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color:
rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">wa' Dol nIvDaq <b>matay'DI'</b>
maQap.<br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"></span><span style=""><br>
</span></div>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">PK:</span></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200);
border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color:
rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><b>matay'DI'</b>, vIHtaHbogh bIQ
rur mu'qaDmey.<br>
</span></div>
<div style=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;
color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><span>DopDaq</span> <span>qul</span>
<span>yIchenmoH</span> <b><span>QobDI'</span></b> <span>ghu'</span>.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p>Good, then it's not impossible. It is sometimes difficult for me
to decide when to use <b>-DI'</b> and when to use <b>-vIS,</b>
and I think the two senses of English <i>when</i> causes that:<i>
when</i> can mean "as soon as," but it can also mean "while." It
might confuse Okrand as well, or he may have had a distinct
interpretation in mind when he chose <b>-DI'</b> for these verbs.</p>
<p>What is, for instance, the difference between <b>DopDaq qul
yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu'</b> s<i>et fire on the side when there is
danger</i> and <b>DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobtaHvIS ghu'</b><i>
set fire on the side while there is danger?</i> Maybe it's one
of presupposition? The first suggests that, in the event of
danger, one should set fire on the side. The second presupposes
the presence of danger, and one should set fire on the side during
that danger. This is speculation.</p>
<p>The <i>paq'batlh</i> sentence is problematical. <b>chu'DI' maS
'ej qaStaHvIS ram</b><i> when the moon is new and during the
night.</i> The English original is <i>on the night of the new
moon.</i> What made Okrand decide to mix <b>-DI'</b> and <b>-vIS</b>
here? The moon is (presumably) new all night, so it's not like
it's describing the moon <i>becoming</i> new during the night. I
return to wondering whether Okrand was letting his English
influence his choice of Klingon grammar: in English you might say
<i>during a night when the moon was new,</i> but you'd be less
likely to say <i>during a night while the moon was new.</i><br>
</p>
<pre cols="72" class="moz-signature">--
SuStel
<a href="http://trimboli.name" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</blockquote><br>
</div>