<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I don’t think we should assume that {jIj} isn’t a pair of homophones, one of which can be used adjectivally. Additionally, we don’t know for sure what the object of {jIj} would be, or if it can take objects when used as a non-adjectival verb. I can cooperate during a specific event without generally being cooperative. If I cooperate WITH someone, that someone might be an object, or maybe they’d need {-vaD}. It can be effectively (dare I use the word) intransitive, yet still be not adjectival, like {Qong}. You don’t sleep something, but when you are sleeping, you are not a sleep person.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My vote, until we get something more specific about this, is that {jIj} is actually two different words that sound alike and have similar meanings, just like in English you can cooperate or be cooperative. You can’t cooperative, and you can’t be cooperate. In English, “cooperate” and “cooperative” are different words, sound different, but they share etymological roots. In Klingon, perhaps they simply sound alike, but are used differently.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>pItlh</div><div><br class=""></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Apr 5, 2022, at 10:23 AM, Iikka Hauhio <<a href="mailto:fergusq@protonmail.com" class="">fergusq@protonmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200, 200); border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-right-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); padding-left: 10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class=""><div style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;" class=""><span style="font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; display: inline !important;" class="">I don't automatically take every gloss that starts with<span class=""> </span></span><i style="font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;" class="">be</i><span style="font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class=""> </span>as proving a quality verb, so I'm not convinced<span class=""> </span></span><b style="font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;" class="">jIj<span class=""> </span></b><span style="font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; display: inline !important;" class="">is one.</span><br class=""></div></blockquote><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""></span><span style="display: inline !important;" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><b class="">jIj</b> is used in <b class="">yuQjIjDIvI' </b>etc. where it seems to be used adjectivally (Union of cooperative planets). As it's a compound we cannot be sure that its components can be used individually, but it's some evidence for <b class="">jIj</b> being a quality verb.</span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class="">It should be noted that the "be cooperative" meaning was given after the "cooperate" meaning. I don't see why to publish this new gloss unless the reason was to clarify that <b class="">jIj</b> indeed can be used as a quality verb.</span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class="">As for using perfective with the quality verbs, I don't see why they'd work any differently than other intransitive verbs. Why would <b class="">jIQongpu' </b><i class="">"I was asleep" </i>be allowed, but <b class="">jIQuppu' </b><i class="">"I was young" </i>not? Just as sleeping is a completed event, being young is also a completed event. I was young, I can look that as a completed whole.</span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><br class=""></span></div><div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class="">Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio</span></div><div class="protonmail_quote">
------- Original Message -------<br class="">
On Tuesday, April 5th, 2022 at 16.03, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class="">
<blockquote class="protonmail_quote" type="cite">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2022 8:16 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br class="">
But there's still something I'm wondering. When would it be
appropriate for us to put the {-pu'} on a quality verb? Because
-if my understanding is correct- I can't think of an occasion when
something like this would be needed. So could you write an example
where the {-pu'} would be necessary on a quality verb?</blockquote><p class="">I don't think it's a very sensible thing to do, but it might be
possible. An analogy would be using the English word <i class="">know</i>
in the present progressive tense. Normally, one wouldn't say <i class="">I
am knowing it,</i> but there might be special circumstances
where you would say it. <i class="">Aha! Now I'm learning it and I'm
knowing it!</i> Someone might say something like this to
deliberately make the learning and knowing parallel by forcing
both into the same tense. You might do something similar with
Klingon perfective.</p><p class="">Basically, saying things like <b class="">jIQuchpu'</b> and <b class="">SuDalpu'</b>
would sound like <i class="">I happied</i> and Y<i class="">ou boringed.</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Or perhaps does voragh know of a Ca'Non example where we have
the {-pu'} on a quality/stative verb?</div>
</blockquote><p class="">The only possibility I'm aware of is <b class="">woQ luSuqmeH jIjpu' chaH
romuluSngan'e' je</b> from Skybox S26, but this is a bad data
point, because <b class="">jIj</b> was originally glossed as <i class="">cooperate</i>
and only got the further gloss of <i class="">be cooperative</i> after
this card was published. I don't automatically take every gloss
that starts with <i class="">be</i> as proving a quality verb, so I'm not
convinced <b class="">jIj </b>is one.</p>
<pre cols="72" class="moz-signature">--
SuStel
<a href="http://trimboli.name/" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" rel="noreferrer nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</blockquote><br class="">
</div>_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>