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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2022 11:50 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0D28240C-0C23-4EEF-AAD5-10350BAB433C@mac.com">
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...<br class="">
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<div class="">On Apr 5, 2022, at 11:00 AM, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext" moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
wrote:</div>
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charset=UTF-8" class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/5/2022 10:23 AM, Iikka
Hauhio wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:R7T8a-K8xJ3Kh5lPVv-uThfCLSpKGlLSAv6gRGU_lAN7-LOcmonCUuOl4CyYar-AXEQ1tM9vXYUVkvPD5u49NMoaKIZnYssRF5a9KjGY1EE=@protonmail.com"
class="">
<blockquote style="border-left: 3px solid rgb(200, 200,
200); border-top-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
border-right-color: rgb(200, 200, 200);
border-bottom-color: rgb(200, 200, 200); padding-left:
10px; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);" class="">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-size: 14px;"
class=""><span style="font-family: -apple-system,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica
Neue", sans-serif; display: inline
!important;" class="">I don't automatically take
every gloss that starts with<span class=""> </span></span><i
style="font-family: -apple-system,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica
Neue", sans-serif;" class="">be</i><span
style="font-family: -apple-system,
BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto,
Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell, "Helvetica
Neue", sans-serif; display: inline
!important;" class=""><span class=""> </span>as
proving a quality verb, so I'm not convinced<span
class=""> </span></span><b style="font-family:
-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell,
"Helvetica Neue", sans-serif;" class="">jIj<span
class=""> </span></b><span style="font-family:
-apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe
UI", Roboto, Oxygen-Sans, Ubuntu, Cantarell,
"Helvetica Neue", sans-serif; display:
inline !important;" class="">is one.</span><br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial;
font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""></span><span
style="display: inline !important;" class=""><br
class="">
</span></div>
<div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial;
font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class=""><b
class="">jIj</b> is used in <b class="">yuQjIjDIvI'
</b>etc. where it seems to be used adjectivally
(Union of cooperative planets). As it's a compound
we cannot be sure that its components can be used
individually, but it's some evidence for <b
class="">jIj</b> being a quality verb.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">I said it was a bad data point, not that I
have judged it to be not a quality verb. Don't read more
into my words than what I said.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<div>While I very much respect your expertise and your analysis,
in this case I was not reading things into what you said. I
was offering a reasonable explanation for the “bad data
point”.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Nono, I was replying to Iikka, not you. I agreed with what you
said there.</p>
<p><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0D28240C-0C23-4EEF-AAD5-10350BAB433C@mac.com">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class=""> </p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:R7T8a-K8xJ3Kh5lPVv-uThfCLSpKGlLSAv6gRGU_lAN7-LOcmonCUuOl4CyYar-AXEQ1tM9vXYUVkvPD5u49NMoaKIZnYssRF5a9KjGY1EE=@protonmail.com"
class="">
<div style="" class=""><span style="font-family: arial;
font-size: 14px; color: rgb(34, 34, 34);" class="">As
for using perfective with the quality verbs, I don't
see why they'd work any differently than other
intransitive verbs. Why would <b class="">jIQongpu'
</b><i class="">"I was asleep" </i>be allowed, but <b
class="">jIQuppu' </b><i class="">"I was young" </i>not?
Just as sleeping is a completed event, being young
is also a completed event. I was young, I can look
that as a completed whole.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">For the same reason that you can say <b
class="">ghu Qup</b> but not <b class="">ghu Qong.</b>
Sleeping is an event; being young is not an event. Being
asleep is a state. The issue is more complicated for <b
class="">Qong,</b> because in English <i class="">sleep</i>
is an event and <i class="">be asleep</i> is a state. <b
class="">jIQongpu'</b> would be most accurately
translated as <i class="">I slept</i> and would be used
in a context of looking back at a point where I engaged
in the single act of sleeping, whose flow over time is
compressed. <b class="">jIQong</b> would be most
accurately translated in the past tense as <i class="">I
was asleep</i> and would be used in a context of
describing my state at a particular point in the past.</p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<div>I really like this specific model you suggest in terms of
the perfective. The perfective sees the completion of the
action as a point in time without reference to the duration of
the action.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It sees the action itself, including its completion, as a point
in time without reference to duration (or frequency, or
habitualness, etc.). By saying <b>jIQongpu',</b> you're not just
saying that there is a point on the timeline where you finish
sleeping; you're saying there's a point on the timeline where you
performed a complete act of sleeping.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0D28240C-0C23-4EEF-AAD5-10350BAB433C@mac.com">
<div>
<div> The continuous aspect refers to the duration of the action
as a fat thing with no reference to the beginning or end.
Those boundaries are left vague and unstated. With no affix,
you refer to some fractional duration of the activity without
reference to that ending boundary or to the duration as a
whole.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Or you refer to some timeless activity or state that doesn't have
a place on the timeline. For instance, <b>reH yIHmey HoH
tlhInganpu'</b><i> Klingons always kill tribbles.</i> This
doesn't happen at a specific time; it's a timeless fact. Without
the <b>reH, </b>just <b>yIHmey HoH tlhInganpu'</b> could mean <i>Klingons
kill tribbles</i> (a timeless fact) or <i>the Klingons kill the
tribbles</i> (a specific event, described in the act of
killing).<i> </i>(In English, the distinction is made with the
determiner <i>the</i>.)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0D28240C-0C23-4EEF-AAD5-10350BAB433C@mac.com">
<div>
<div> The fraction can be a point in time (other than the end)
or of some duration shorter than the entire duration. The
focus is on the activity itself instead of any reference to
duration. The length of the duration can be vague because it
is insignificant to the meaning of the statement.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Exactly!<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0D28240C-0C23-4EEF-AAD5-10350BAB433C@mac.com">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Anyway, the point here is that there is a
dearth of perfective on quality verbs in Klingon that
may be significant. I'm not saying outright that you
can't put perfective on a quality, but I am saying that
it may be unusual and probably doesn't mean what you
think it means. If you're thinking that it means that at
some point in the past the subject had the quality and
that point is over now, that's not using perfective
correctly. That's just past tense. By using perfective
on a quality, you're saying that the expression of the
quality includes not only the quality but the completion
of the quality, all in one "moment" (however long a
moment is in context).<br class="">
</p>
</div>
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<div>Yep. If you had something specific to say that you think
would be meaningfully expressed with {-pu’} on a stative verb,
then you’d have a reason to explore this, but like you, I
don’t foresee that circumstance. Starting with “Okay, so we
put {-pu’} on a stative verb. What does this mean?” I think
you are putting the cart in front of the Sargh, and the tail
is wagging the targh.</div>
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</blockquote>
<p>I think exploring the question of perfective on qualities is a
good one to ask (because this discussion was started by someone
doing just that), but I don't think you can answer it just by
declaring a yes or a no as Iikka is doing.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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