<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">In early days, I was complaining because the word glosses didn’t specify whether verbs were transitive or intransitive. English dictionaries do this for a reason. Why not TKD?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">During the interview, Okrand tended to wince when I pushed to figure out transitivity. SuStel figured this out before I did, with greater clarity. I’m not sure whether as a practical measure to give Okrand more wiggle room for future translations so that a smaller vocabulary could go farther, or whether it was some kind of grammatical principal that he wanted the language to have, but the simple truth is Klingon grammarians don’t think about transitivity like we do. Verbs can take an object or not. Stative/Adjectival/“to be” verbs generally don’t take objects, unless you add {-moH}, and certain verbs tend to be associated with certain objects or with certain types of object, but even then someone could come up with an utterance that works, even though it doesn’t fit the patterns we’ve seen with that specific verb before, blah, blah, blah.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, on one hand, it is better to back off from trying to come up with any general rule defining when verbs can or cannot take objects… except for special verbs which are actually more rigid than their English equivalents, like {vIH}/move, because in English, when I move the pie, the pie moves, but in Klingon, {chab vIvIHmoHDI’, vIH chab}. {vIH} never takes an object, unless you add {-moH}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That’s a special thing you have to learn about {vIH}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Certain verbs require special study, like:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">vIH</div><div class="">ghoS</div><div class="">jatlh</div><div class="">ja’</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Aaaand sometimes these things you have to learn about verbs change, since by the glosses in TKD, the object of {jatlh} was the utterance, while the object of {ja’} was the person you spoke to, but eventually canon made that distinction… less distinct.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, instead of thinking, “I’m looking for the general rule about verbs and objects, and the exceptional verbs that don’t follow those rules,” in Klingon, it is better to think, “I’m going to learn the exceptional verbs that have rules that apply to them in terms of what objects they take or don’t take.” The rest of the verbs? Don’t get too fixated on patterns you may think you see. There are trends, yes, but those trends are not reliable rules.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>pItlh</div><div><br class=""></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 16, 2022, at 7:47 PM, DloraH <<a href="mailto:seruq@bellsouth.net" class="">seruq@bellsouth.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">While I may have been quoted as saying that in 2006, the signing took</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">place in the 90's. That's why at the time of that quote I no longer</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">remembered what he had said.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">So in that second quote, from Okrand to charghwI', where he says he has</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">used it that way, he may likely have been referring to when he signed</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">my KGT... and/or he also used that phrase signing other books.</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">- DloraH</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On Wed, 2022-02-16 at 15:21 +0000, Steven Boozer wrote:</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">As to whether {yIn} “live” can take an object :<br class=""><br class="">(DloraH, 1/2006): [Okrand] signed my KGT {tlhIngan yIn DayIn}. I<br class="">don't remember now what he said afterwards, but I remember taking it<br class="">as a hint that this was not completely grammatical but could be said.<br class=""><br class="">(Okrand to charghwI', HQ 7.4 [12/1998]): For example, I've used the<br class="">word {yIn} transitively. "You live a Klingon life." That's perfectly<br class="">acceptable in Klingon. It's perfectly acceptable in English, too, but<br class="">it is not obvious from the short definition in the dictionary that<br class="">that would be an okay thing to do.<br class="">… but I couldn’t find another example however. WRT to {tIv} “enjoy”<br class="">:<br class=""><br class="">(Lieven 12/12/2013): [Maltz] said he has been asked before about<br class="">“Merry Christmas” and “Happy New Year”. He thought they were silly<br class="">things to say (and, of course, there are no traditional Klingon ways<br class="">to say these things), but he said that if you have to say “Happy New<br class="">Year”, you could say {DIS chu' yItIv} or {DIS chu' DatIvjaj} or {DIS<br class="">chu' botIvjaj} or the like.<br class=""><br class="">I agree with De’vID that {SIQ} “endure” would seem *le mot juste* :<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>yIn nI' yISIQ 'ej yIchep<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Live long and prosper! (RT)<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'oy' DaSIQjaj<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>May you endure the pain! (PK; a good thing to Klingons)<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>yIn DayajmeH 'oy' yISIQ.<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>To understand life, endure pain. (TKW)<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH ‘ej ‘oy’ SIQ ghaH<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>And teach him life and death, the slow and painful way! (PB)<br class="">Finally note the difference between {tu’be’lu’} :<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>QuvlIjDaq yIH tu'be'lu'jaj<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>May your coordinates be free of tribbles! (PK)<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>vaSvamDaq tuq veng je quvvaD Heghqangbogh<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SuvwI’ tu’be’lu’’a’<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Is there nobody in this hall prepared to die for the honor<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of your tribe and city? (PB)<br class=""><br class="">and {tu’lu’be’} :<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SuvwI'pu' qan tu'lu'be'<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>There are no old warriors. (TKW)<br class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'Iw HIq yap tu'lu'be'<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sufficient bloodwine does not exist. (qep'a' 2014<br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Secrecy Proverb)<br class="">--<br class="">Voragh<br class=""><br class="">______________________________________________<br class="">From: tlhIngan-Hol On Behalf Of De'vID<br class="">On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 at 13:41,<br class=""><<a href="mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de" class="">luis.chaparro@web.de</a><<a href="mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de" class="">mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de</a>>> wrote:<br class="">'ewrop DIvI' 'oHtaH'a' 'ewrop DIvI''e'?<br class=""> [ ... ]<br class="">poH nI' bov chep wIyInpu' 'ewropngan.<br class=""><br class="">As always, I would appreciate any help / correction in order to<br class="">improve my Klingon. I also have four short questions:<br class="">3. Can we put other suffixes between *tu'* and *lu'* when meaning<br class="">*there is/are* like in *tu'choHlu'pu'*?<br class=""><br class="">Yes. {tu'lu'} is just the verb {tu'} plus the suffix {-lu'}, and (if<br class="">it makes sense) verb suffixes can go in between. The only canon<br class="">example I found was {QuvlIjDaq tu'be'lu'jaj} which has the rover {-<br class="">be'} between them.<br class=""> [ … ]<br class="">Also, I'm not sure that you can {yIn} a {bov chep}. I think {SIQ} is<br class="">the right word, even though in English "endure" is usually used for<br class="">negative experiences. Or maybe one could use {tIv}, though I don't<br class="">know if Klingons would "enjoy" a prosperous era in the meaning of<br class="">{tIv}.<br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br class=""></blockquote><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>