<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thanks for an excellent analysis. I thought that TKD referred to {-vo’} as locative and remember no mention of ablative, though that totally makes sense.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Once again, I see that Okrand missed a chance to make Klingon alien to English. [sigh]</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>pItlh</div><div><br class=""></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 7, 2022, at 11:43 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/7/2022 11:07 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E65DCDA1-3498-4E80-BFD4-7AFBAF010528@mac.com" class="">
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Okay, weird idea: Change the Head Noun. {Ha’DIbaH vIlegh tawDaq
jISumbogh}? “I, who am near the street, saw an animal.” Now, we
don’t know where the animal is, which is a new problem.</blockquote><p class="">You'd need to explicitly use the <b class="">jIH</b> here. Dropping it
causes a no-head-noun problem. <b class="">Ha'DIbaH vIlegh tawDaq
jISumbogh jIH.</b> I don't think it works even like this,
because <b class="">tawDaq jISumbogh jIH</b> is a nonrestrictive relative
clause, unless you've been duplicated and you're explaining which
<b class="">jIH</b> you're talking about. And in such a weird case, I might
expect the <b class="">jIH</b> to be treated as a third-person entity,
since it's not literally the speaker, even if it's identical to
the speaker.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E65DCDA1-3498-4E80-BFD4-7AFBAF010528@mac.com" class=""> {tawDaq
Sumbogh Ha’DIbaH vIlegh juHwIjDaq jIHtaHbogh.} “I, who am in my
house, saw an animal, which is near the street.” See how
complicated this can get?</blockquote><p class="">Same issue. You need an explicit head noun (or pronoun), and
you're using a nonrestrictive relative clause, unless there are
duplicates of you.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E65DCDA1-3498-4E80-BFD4-7AFBAF010528@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">We don’t really have the mechanism to apply two
separate locatives to the same verb, except for the special
directional verbs that take locations as objects. {DujwIjDaq
Qo’noS vIghoS.} I’m in my ship and I’m going to Kronos. Both the
ship and Kronos are locations that involve the actions of going.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Can we do this with vision? Can I say, “I saw an
animal in the street from my house,”? {juHwIjvo’ tawDaq Ha’DIbaH
vIlegh.} Does this work?</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Yes, but <b class="">juHwIjvo'</b> is not a locative. It's an ablative.
And ablatives with <b class="">legh</b> seem to be a special case in
Klingon. But regardless, there's no problem in Klingon to
simultaneously say that an action occurs <i class="">at</i> one location
and <i class="">away</i> from another. <b class="">Qo'noSvo' DujwIjDaq
jIlenglaH'a'?</b> <i class="">Can I travel away from Kronos in my ship?</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E65DCDA1-3498-4E80-BFD4-7AFBAF010528@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">Maybe. Do Klingons see vision as happening from a
place to a place? Maybe, instead of seeing vision as something
like an arrow shot from the seer to the target, Klingons trace
the direction of light and see from the target to the viewer.
Vision is then more like taking than like giving. That’s an
alien idea to us, but hey, Klingons are aliens, right?</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Actually, I think the canonical <b class="">pa'lIjvo' pagh leghlu'</b>
supports the idea that Klingons have a sight metaphor identical to
that which we have in English.</p><p class="">In earlier times, it was commonly believed that sight operated by
the eyes sending out some mysterious kind of beam to touch a
target. Whatever this beam hit is what you'd see. The idea of the
eyes collecting light to enable vision is a relatively recent
discovery. It wasn't until the Renaissance that the mechanics of
vision began to be understood. By then, the idea of sight
operating by extramission had worked its way deeply into language,
and it's ingrained in English today. A keen or sharp or piercing
glance refers to the workings of that beam. You can <i class="">feel</i>
eyes on you. One basic metaphor is that you can <i class="">see from</i> a
place, worded as if your sight is something that leaves the place
you're in.</p><p class="">We just have the one example in an early source that's known to
be a bit grammatically wonky, so I'm not prepared to jump
wholeheartedly into the claim that Klingon includes full-on
extramission metaphors. It's just one possible explanation for the
line.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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