<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Thank you for good analysis and clarification, and for taking more time than I did to see what was happening here. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To make sure I got this right:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">{-Daq} and other Type 5 suffixed nouns are fine in Relative Clauses or in Main Clauses that have embedded Relative Clauses, so long as the Head Noun doesn’t have the Type 5 suffix with the intent of making that Head Noun other than subject or object of the Relative Clause. That’s the specific “ship in which I fled” problem, a.k.a. the “Cat in the Hat” problem, or the “Elephant in my pajamas” problem.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>pItlh</div><div><br class=""></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 3, 2022, at 9:21 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/3/2022 7:35 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAP7F2cL=X7Dfc9tJSOrDqtPiebisnw=q+HzDOFUJ+0MaZsy8Aw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">This thread is slowly but steadily turning into a nightmare.
SuStel:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yes, you can use other type 5 suffixes on the head noun,
provided those suffixes apply in the main sentence, not the relative clause.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I found this from the paq'batlh:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">vaj matlhutlhjaj
ghe'torDaq ghaHtaHbogh vavwI' wIquvmoHjaj
Heghbogh loDnI'wI' wIquvmoHjaj!
Let us drink then
To my father in Gre'thor
And the brother I once had.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Here the {-Daq} obviously refers to the {ghaHtaHbogh vavwI'}. (there's
an {-'e'} missing from the {vavwI'}, but that's not the problem right
now).
The way I understand what's being said in this thread so far, is that
the translation of {ghe'torDaq ghaHtaHbogh vavwI' wIquvmoHjaj} isn't
"may we honor my father who's in hell", but rather "may we honor in
hell, my father who's somewhere unspecified". I get the meaning that
the speaker says "we're in hell, and with us being there, may we honor
my father who's somewhere unspecified".</pre>
</blockquote><p class="">This is not a "ship in which I fled" problem. The relative clause
is <b class="">ghe'torDaq ghaHtaHbogh vavwI'</b> (missing an <b class="">-'e'</b>)
<i class="">my father who is in Grethor.</i> The head noun is <b class="">vavwI'.</b>
The locative is internal to the relative clause. The main clause
is <b class="">X wIquvmoHjaj</b><i class=""> May we honor X.</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAP7F2cL=X7Dfc9tJSOrDqtPiebisnw=q+HzDOFUJ+0MaZsy8Aw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Also again from the paq'batlh:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">qeylISvaD jach 'ej beyDaj luqImmo'
yuQDaq ghaHtaHbogh Hoch tlhIngan'e'
Qomqa' Hoch Qo'noS nuvpu'
All of Kronos trembled once more,
For every Klingon on the planet
Followed her cry for Kahless.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Again here the {-Daq} refers to the {ghaHtaHbogh Hoch tlhIngan'e'},
although I'm not quite sure how this entire line is supposed to fit in
with the lines above and below it.</pre>
</blockquote><p class="">This is also not a "ship in which I fled" problem. The relative
clause is <b class="">yuQDaq ghaHtaHbogh Hoch tlhIngan'e'</b><i class=""> every
Klingon who is on the planet</i>. The head noun is <b class="">Hoch
tlhIngan'e'. </b>The locative is internal to the relative
clause. The main sentence is <b class="">beyDaj luqImmo' X</b><i class=""> because
X paid attention to her cry.</i></p><p class="">The lines are enjambed, which makes understanding the syntax a
little tricky. Read it like this:</p><p class=""><i class="">She screamed for Kahless, and because every Klingon who was on
the planet paid attention to her cry, all the people of Kronos
experienced an earthquake again.</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAP7F2cL=X7Dfc9tJSOrDqtPiebisnw=q+HzDOFUJ+0MaZsy8Aw@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">With all these being said, returning to the original sentence..
qa'naDa'Daq Sumbogh 'amerI'qa' mIl'oDmey tu'lu'
at canada where america is near there are bears
I still can't see why one alternate translation couldn't be as well
"At Canada which is being neared by America there are bears". Yes, the
English translation is weird. But I was under the impression, that in
a {-bogh} clause the head noun can be marked not only by an {-'e'} but
by other type-5 suffixes too. I don't know if this impression of mine
is actually correct, but perhaps this impression is the root of my
misunderstanding.
</pre>
</blockquote><p class="">Here are the possible valid interpretations, with relative
clauses bracketed:</p><p class=""><b class="">qa'naDa'Daq [Sumbogh 'amerI'qa' mIl'oDmey] tu'lu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">In Canada, there are American sabre bears that are nearby<br class="">
</i>The head noun of the relative clause is <b class="">'amerI'qa'
mIl'oDmey.</b><br class="">
<i class=""></i></p><p class=""><b class="">[qa'naDa'Daq Sumbogh 'amerI'qa' mIl'oDmey] tu'lu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">There are American sabre bears that are near Canada.<br class="">
</i>The head noun of the relative clause is <b class="">'amerI'qa'
mIl'oDmey.</b></p><p class="">Klingon relative clauses are restrictive. That is, the narrow the
sense of the head noun of the clause, changing its nature. <i class="">Pick
the card that is red, not the card that is white</i> has
restrictive relative clauses, as the clauses restrict the type of
card I'm talking about to specific colors.<br class="">
</p><p class="">What you're trying to do is use nonrestrictive relative clauses.
Nonrestrictive clauses describe the head noun as an aside, adding
additional information without changing the nature of the head
noun. <i class="">I handed her my business card, which was white</i> is a
nonrestrictive clause, because the fact that it is white does not
restrict exactly which business card I'm talking about.
Nonrestrictive clauses are usually set off parenthetically by
commas.<br class="">
</p><p class="">You're trying to use a nonrestrictive relative clause in the
Klingon. You're trying to say, <i class="">In Canada, which is near
America, there are bears.</i> That's a nonrestrictive clause,
and Klingon doesn't do those.</p><p class="">You frequently splice parenthetical comments into your texts, but
we don't usually see Klingon texts doing this, so it's hard to
advise you. The easiest way to conform to known Klingon style is
not to include these parenthetical comments in the middle of
sentences, but to break them out into sentences of their own. <b class="">qana'Da'Daq
mIlloDmey tu'lu'. 'amerI'qa'Daq Sum qana'Da'.</b> If you
absolutely must include parenthetical, nonrestrictive notes, set
them off by commas or other punctuation and keep them separate
from the syntax of the main sentence. <b class="">qana'Da'Daq —
'amerI'qa'Daq Sum qana'Da' — mIlloDmey tu'lu'.</b> But I don't
recommend doing this if you want to stick to known Klingon style.<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>