<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/6/2022 10:13 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E8F4DC3B-88B7-4AF4-ACF2-E35C40264D58@mac.com">I’d like a
clarification. I sometimes have false memories, so I won’t assume
that my memory that {HochHom X} would be plural (more than half of
whole 0items in the group of items called X) and {X HochHom} would
be singular (more than half of one item called X). When before the
noun, I thought {HochHom} behaved grammatically like a number, and
when following the noun, it acted more like a second noun in a
noun-noun construction. I thought that {Hoch} worked the same way.</blockquote>
<p>We've seen <b>Hoch X</b> and we've seen <b>X HochHom,</b> but I
don't think we've seen <b>HochHom X.</b> More in a minute on <b>X
Hoch.</b><br>
</p>
<p>We know the rules for <b>Hoch X</b> because Okrand told them to
us. <b>Hoch X</b> means <i>each X, taken individually</i> when X
has no plural suffix on it, and it means <i>all X's, taken
collectively</i> when X has a plural suffix on it. You can call
this "grammatically like a number" if you like, but it's a bit
more complicated than that.<br>
</p>
<p>We've seen <b>X HochHom</b> in canon and its use seems obvious.
It means <i>most of X, the majority of X.</i> You can think of it
as more like a noun-noun construction than a number if you like.
I'm not sure the distinction of "like a number" and "like a
noun-noun construction" is necessarily mutually exclusive or
useful — that is, I wouldn't want to assign any predictive power
to a declaration of being in one category or the other.</p>
<p>We have, for example, the phrase <b>Hoch botlh</b> in <i>paq'batlh,</i>
which doesn't mean <i>each center;</i> it's being used as a
noun-noun construction, because the translation is <i>center of
all.</i></p>
<p>As for <b>X Hoch,</b> we have an example of that in <i>paq'batlh:<br>
</i></p>
<p><b>jIlay'DI' reH batlh jIpabchugh<br>
Qapla'meywIj Hoch vIta'ta' 'e' DaHar'a'<br>
quv vuv nuv pagh ghajbogh neH</b></p>
<p><i>Did you think that my word of honor<br>
Would have carried me this far?<br>
Honor is for those with nothing to lose!</i></p>
<p>I interpret <b>Qapla'meywIj Hoch</b><i> </i>as <i>all my
successes,</i> to correspond to the English <i>this far.</i> It
seems to be exactly identical in meaning to <b>Hoch Qapla'meywIj.</b>
The grammar here remains unexplained. All 21 other instances of <b>Hoch</b>
in <i>paq'batlh</i> follow known rules.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E8F4DC3B-88B7-4AF4-ACF2-E35C40264D58@mac.com">
<div class="">I’m guessing this is similar to numbers in general,
since {vagh X} is five Xs, but {X vagh} is a specific item from
a group of items called {X}, so that numbers indicate degree of
plurality when preceding nouns, and describe a specific,
singular noun when they follow it.<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I wouldn't assume this is parallel. I wouldn't set up a guess as
a parallel in order to be able to use the guess as the basis for
predicting correct grammar.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>