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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/21/2021 11:02 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3C82570B-3733-4F7B-A51E-3B955D82D78D@mac.com">
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I respectfully disagree with both of you.
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">I think that Tolkien and Okrand are simply two
different geniuses who deserve respect with none of us really
having the authority to disrespect one while deferring to the
other. Neither Okrand nor Tolkien would have had anyone
interested in their languages if not for the fictional worlds in
which those languages were spoken. Tolkien certainly went
broader in terms of developing multiple languages for multiple
cultures in the same fictional universe, basing them on his
personal research into earlier languages in the British Isles,
and in creating that universe, but none of those languages have
the useful vocabulary of Klingon because Tolkien never dove that
deeply into any of the languages he created. He was too busy
creating novels to create robust, extensive dictionaries.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Too busy creating novels to create robust dictionaries. You
haven't got the slightest idea what Tolkien was doing with his
languages, do you?</p>
<p>Tolkien's purpose wasn't to create speakable languages, or to
create languages in which he or anyone else could translate texts.
He was creating languages as works of art. The aesthetics were
entirely the point, not the ability to communicate in them. They
were mostly used for naming things. He wasn't too busy writing
novels to develop the languages; the novels were written <i>because</i>
of the languages. All of it, the stories, the languages, the
scripts, it was all part of the same thing. His languages were
continually changing and growing in detail for his entire adult
life. Tolkien was a professor of English literature and language
and a philologist. Philology is the study of the origin and change
of language over time through literature, history, art, music,
etc. It is hardly studied anymore, because it is <i>damn</i>
hard, and Tolkien used it as the basis for his <i>hobby.</i><br>
</p>
<p>No one is disrespecting anyone here. I simply said that Klingon
is not a work of genius. It's good, but as constructed languages
go, it's not <i>amazing.</i> Okrand is a linguist who happened to
be in the right place at the right time to produce something
influential, and I'm sure he would be the first to agree with
that.</p>
<p>This isn't a popularity contest. I speak and write Klingon, not
Sindarin or Quenya. I know a bit about the elvish languages, but
not enough to write a single original sentence in any of them. I
also like <i>Star Trek V,</i> even though I know that it's
inferior in many ways to most other Star Trek films. Embracing
something is not the same as saying it's a work of genius.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:3C82570B-3733-4F7B-A51E-3B955D82D78D@mac.com">
<div class="">I dealt with one Tolkien language fan who boasted of
how superior Elvin was to Klingon by translating a sentence he
gave me into Klingon and then asking him to translate something
into Elvin for me. His face froze, and he backpedaled to say
that he didn’t PERSONALLY know the language well enough, but
OTHERS certainly could… and so forth.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>And I've been to science-fiction conventions, walked up to people
pretending to be Klingons, and said, <b>tlhIngan Hol bojatlh'a'?</b>
and they've looked at me like I was speaking an alien language,
which I was, and which they didn't understand at all, no matter
how many times they shouted <i>kuhplah!</i> The quality of the
fans is not related to the quality of the work.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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