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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(ghunchu'wI' [date?]): At qep'a' loSDIch "Robyn Stewart's idea of {lutu'lu'} as the Klingon version of “whom“ got a nod and an explicit lack of contradiction [from Okrand].
{naDev tlhInganpu' lutu'lu'} IS grammatical, but the {lu-} is more often left off.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">(charghwI' [date?]): {lutu'lu'} does NOT translate as “whom” in any way at all. It is just that in English, most people use the word “who” when formally they should be using
“whom”, much like most Klingons use the word {tu'lu'} when they should be using {lutu'lu'}. In other words, the more formally correct sentence is {tlhInganpu' lutu'lu'} though most Klingons most of the time would say {tlhInganpu' tu'lu'}.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">See also “Common Errors: The Case of {lu-}“ (KGT pp. 168-172) – although Okrand didn’t mention {lutu’lu’}. Some excerpts:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Among the more tolerated grammatical errors is one involving the pronominal prefix {lu-}, whose use is rather complex. In colloquial Klingon, however, it is sometimes not
used in instances in which grammar books would say it is required. <…> If the indefinite subject suffix {-lu'} (phonetically similar, but unrelated to the prefix) is used, indicating that someone or something unknown or unstated performs the action, things
get a little more complicated. <…> If the indefinite subject suffix {–lu'} (phonetically similar, but unrelated to the prefix) is used, indicating that someone or something unknown or unstated performs the action, things get a little more complicated. <…>
Except in formal situations, however, the omission of {lu-} in such cases is often overlooked. Though technically an error, and jarring to many Klingons' ears, it causes no confusion as to the intended meaning of the sentence. It is important to note that
this does not mean that the use of {lu-} is optional; it is left off only under specific conditions. Klingon grammarians refer to the rule that governs the use of pronominal prefixes as the rule of {rom} (literally, "accord"). Grammarians of Federation Standard
and many Earth languages call the phenomenon “agreement." Thus, in the case of Klingon, the prefix used must "agree" with the noun to which it refers; if the object noun is plural, for example, the prefix must be one that is used with plural objects. Agreeing
is not a trait typically associated with Klingon nature, however, and apparently, at least under certain circumstances, this may extend to grammar as well.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">As with anything, it depends on context and audience. Among many native English speakers the hyper-correct -- some would say “overly pedantic” -- use of “whom”
is very annoying and considered elitist (even in academia, especially these days). One can only imagine how a group of Klingon warriors would react to such behavior.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--<br>
Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">_________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>SuStel<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 10/7/2021 10:03 AM, <a href="mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de">
luis.chaparro@web.de</a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>By the way, thinking of another fixed expression, <span class="moz-txt-tag"><b>*</b></span><b>tu'lu'*: I know Okrand compared it to English *there's<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> referring to plural, you were discussing that some weeks ago. But since I'm not an English native speaker, I don't know know how acceptable this use is in formal texts. Or in other words: when I write a formal text in Klingon, should I use *lutu'lu'* for a plural object, or is the form *tu'lu'* also acceptable?<o:p></o:p></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>It appears that <b>tu'lu'</b> is also a fixed expression. You can say things like
<b>Dujmey tu'lu'</b><i> There are ships.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't remember Okrand comparing English <i>there's</i> referring to a plural noun. You wouldn't do this in formal English, and even in casual conversation saying something like
<i>there's ships in orbit</i> might be noticed, though it's unlikely anyone but a stickler would comment on it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I don't think Klingon <b>tu'lu'</b> in reference to a plural noun can only be used informally. It is even used this way without comment when we are introduced to it
<b>(naDev puqpu' tu'lu').</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SuStel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/trimboli.name__;!!BpyFHLRN4TMTrA!s30RljJUcPEtBKVA-KYfX8xsvJHWVqZQUI1DKJvRwCRNjTew1r5gNDFEoRaA8UK5AUM$">http://trimboli.name</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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