<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/2021 4:34 PM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de">luis.chaparro@web.de</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">SuStel:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I haven't done more than skim the Klingonska page about these things. What does it say that TKD doesn't?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">As I understand it, these informations aren't <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>directly<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> stated in TKD:
- *Adjectival verbs are stressed as verbs.*</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>Adjectival verbs are just verbs, so this doesn't say anything we
didn't already know.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- *Nominalized verbs (nouns created using suffixes /-wI'/ and /-ghach/) are stressed as nouns.*</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>"A noun formed by adding <b>-wI'</b> to a verb is a regular
noun." So this also doesn't say anything we weren't already told.</p>
<p>I agree that the case for <b>-ghach</b> is a little less
explicit, since it was part of the addendum and not included in
the ways to create complex nouns, but a verb ending in <b>-ghach</b>
is clearly a complex noun in the same way that a verb ending in <b>-wI'</b>
is a complex noun.</p>
<p>However, since <b>-ghach</b> has no glottal stop to draw stress,
and since by definition a word with <b>-ghach</b> <i>must<b> </b></i>have
at least two syllables before the <b>-ghach,</b> I agree that the
question of how to stress it may become important. I don't know if
the Klingonska page says anything specifically about this in the
case of <b>-ghach.</b><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
- <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>in compound nouns, only the last syllable of the <i class="moz-txt-slash"><span class="moz-txt-tag">/</span>last stem<span class="moz-txt-tag">/</span></i> is stressed<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b></pre>
</blockquote>
<p>I agree that TKD doesn't clearly state that its noun stress rules
apply only to simple nouns. On the other hand, the exact
definition of <i>simple noun</i> is not entirely clear to me. The
examples given are monosyllabic, and section 3.2.3 says that many
polysyllabic nouns in Klingon are complex nouns that aren't
necessarily compound nouns, and have elements that can't be
analyzed. The given example is <b>'ejDo',</b> and it is theorized
that <b>Do'</b> was an Old Klingon word for <i>space vessel.</i>
So, can we say that <b>Ha'DIbaH,</b> for example, is a simple
noun? What if it consists of older elements that we can no longer
analyze? That would make it a complex noun. And if a word like <b>Ha'DIbaH</b>
is a complex noun, but if we're supposed to understand that the
stress rules apply to it, then we must assume the stress rules
apply to complex nouns generally, and that includes compound
nouns.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">- And speaking of verbs, <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>the last syllable of the stem is stressed<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> (that's why I asked about monosyllabic verbs).</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>The stress rules are clearly talking about monosyllabic verb
stems, which is nearly all of them. If the Klingonska page says
that the last syllable of the stem of polysyllabic verbs is
stressed, I see no source for this information.<br>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">As an aside: When TKD says <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>two syllables in a row<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> it doesn't mean <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>adjacent syllables<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>, right?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yes, that's what it means, provided the syllables are part of the same word.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Ok, I'm asking because on Klingonska we read about nouns that */If there are syllables ending in glottal stop,/ those are stressed (and stressed equally).* So <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>in a row<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> doesn't mean one inmediately after the other, does it? (maybe I'm having problems with my English here). I mean, *Ha'DIbaHmo'* is stressed on *Ha'* and on *mo'*, right?</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>"Two syllables in a row" means two syllables next to each other.
TKD does not tell us what to do in the case of two syllables
having a glottal stop that aren't in a row. For that, I fall back
to the general rule, "if, however, a syllable ending in <b>'</b>
is present, it is usually stressed instead." Since that would lead
to two equally stressed syllables, that would mean either the "in
a row" is meaningless, that both syllables are stressed but one is
stressed more than the other (and we're not told which is which),
or that something else entirely happens in this case and we're not
told what.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Unknown, but almost all verbs are monosyllabic. There are, what, only three or four exceptions?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I'm wondering now if the verbs <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>He'So'* or *lo'laH<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> are stressed, as Klingonska says, on the last syllable of the stem?</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>Personally, I stress both syllables of <b>He'So'</b> and the <b>lo'</b>
in <b>lo'laH.</b><br>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Ok! Just a question: The sentences I wrote (<b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>ghItlhwI' 'op paq<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>, *'op ghItlhwI' paq*) are not clear, but are they grammatical? Or should I avoid such constructions?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">They're not sentences; they're noun phrases. They are clear, but they are not as distinct as the English translations you're giving them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yes, of course, sorry! I meant noun phrases. So, as I understand it: the exact rules for modifiers of noun-noun-constructions are not clear, but my noun phrases aren't ungrammatical</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>They aren't clearly ungrammatical. As I said, we have limited
information on words like this modifying noun-noun constructions.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap=""> and, if context is clear, I can use them.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>No one can claim they're wrong and prove it.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Anyway, <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>ghItlhwI' 'op paq<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> cannot mean <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>the book/s of some writers<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>. For that, the *'op* should go before the *ghItlhwI'*. At least, that's clear, right?</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-5dd7cee7-3039-4a51-b611-be1dec27f60d-1632342875591@3c-app-webde-bap59">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #007cff;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">So, formally I should always repeat information (*wa'Hu' chab vISoppu', DaHjaj naH vISoppu'*) or maybe look for another word (wa'Hu' chab vISoppu', DaHjaj naH vIwIvpu'*)?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Yes, repetition is fine in Klingon. You might include a je at the end of those to tie the ideas together.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Sorry, I don't understand exactly what you mean with including a <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>je<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> (<b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>je<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> meaning <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>too<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b>?).</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><b>wa'Hu' chab vISoppu'; DaHjaj naH vISoppu' je.</b> <i>I ate
pie yesterday. I also ate vegetables today.</i><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>