<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">The thing to keep in mind here is that while the English passive voice CAN be a translation of the Klingon indefinite subject, the two are not equivalent. SuStel has pointed this out in the past. The English passive voice can have a subject, as in “The song was sung by the singer.”<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If it were just “The song was sung”, that’s English passive voice and fits Klingon indefinite subject, but when you add “by the singer”, the English passive voice just defined the subject, and you can no longer use {-lu’} in the translation into Klingon.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There’s overlap, but not equivalence.<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 16, 2021, at 9:02 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/16/2021 5:47 AM,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:luis.chaparro@web.de">luis.chaparro@web.de</a> wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:trinity-d847356e-0387-4ffd-9440-b145df6a7c65-1631785656618@3c-app-webde-bap49" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">As an aside: Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought of the way prefixes work with *-lu'* when there is an object as a funny way to reflect the typical transformations from active to passive, i.e., the object in active become the subject in passive and the subject in active become the agent in passive, so <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>One has eaten the cakes<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> (he / she - them) become <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>The cakes have been eaten by someone<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> (they - by him / her).</pre>
</blockquote><p class="">You definitely shouldn't think of the Klingon indefinite subject
as being related to any kind of passive voice. When you replace
the subject with <b class="">-lu'</b>, everything else about the clause
remains the same except for the prefix.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><b class="">jIH mulegh ghaH</b><i class=""> He sees me.</i></p><p class=""><b class="">jIH vIleghlu'</b><i class=""> Someone unspecified sees me. </i>(<b class="">jIH</b>
remains the object.)<br class="">
<i class=""></i></p><p class="">It's only in the English translation does anything to do with
passive voice potentially appear.</p><p class="">We are told in TKD the reason the prefixes change with the
indefinite subject:</p>
<blockquote class=""><p class="">Since the subject is always the same (that is, it is always
unstated), the pronomial prefixes... are used in a different
way. Those prefixes which normally indicate first- or
second-person subject and third-person object... are used to
indicate first- or second-person object.</p>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:trinity-d847356e-0387-4ffd-9440-b145df6a7c65-1631785656618@3c-app-webde-bap49" class="">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Just a short question: With no object *-lu'* takes always the prefix 0, right?</pre>
</blockquote><p class="">Yes. Example: <b class="">quSDaq ba'lu''a'</b><i class=""> Is this seat taken?</i>
(Literally, <i class="">Does one sit in chair?</i>)<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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