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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/16/2021 10:32 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D8A7A59F-CE13-444F-807B-4160572AB033@mac.com">Thanks for
this clarification. Not being a linguist, I was unclear about the
difference between the Subject (I’m guessing that’s a syntactic
term) and the Agent (I’m guessing that has more to do with
semantics),</blockquote>
<p>Correct.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D8A7A59F-CE13-444F-807B-4160572AB033@mac.com"> since
they are <i class="">usually</i> one and the same… except in the
passive voice.</blockquote>
<p>The whole reason we make a distinction between syntax and
semantics, and subjects, objects, agents, patients, and so on, is
that they don't always appear in the same partnerships. Syntax
defines how words fit together <i>without careful regard for
their meaning.</i> Semantics defines what meaningful roles words
play in sentences <i>without restricting their syntax.</i></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D8A7A59F-CE13-444F-807B-4160572AB033@mac.com">
<div class="">I see a parallel between this exceptional use of
Patient as Subject in the English passive voice and the change
in meaning of the Klingon prefix (like {vI-}, where it is
clearer) with the suffix {-lu’}. In English, the Patient is
placed in the sentence in the location that the Subject belongs
and the Agent is optional with the helper word “by” and the
location of the Object, but in Klingon, the optionally explicit
Patient is left grammatically in the Object position or is
indicated by the subject implied in the verb prefix, and the
Object (the agent) is always syntactically indicated as third
person singular, and that Agent is never stated because it is,
by definition, Indefinite</div>
</blockquote>
<p>When you use an indefinite subject, the verb prefix does NOT
imply a subject at all. The agent is not indefinite, and the agent
is not the object. The SUBJECT is indefinite. These terms are not
interchangeable.</p>
<p>TKD says that when using indefinite subject, the verb prefixes
are used to agree with only the object, "since the subject is
always the same (that is, it is always unstated)." This is the
explicit reason the prefixes "flip": not because they're
indicating some kind of reversed third-person entity, but because
"the subject is always the same," indefinite.</p>
<p>Verb prefixes operate according to the rule of <b>rom:</b> that
is, they must agree with the object and subject of the verb. When
using an indefinite subject, there is NO SUBJECT for them to agree
with. There's nothing there at all. They CAN'T agree with it. So
indefinite subject prefixes only agree with the object, and they
do so under what appears to be a fairly arbitrary convention.<br>
</p>
<p>The indefinite subject prefixes are certainly NOT matching the
agent in any way. If <b>Daqawlu'</b><i> you are remembered,</i>
and I'm doing the remembering <i>(you are remembered by me),</i>
you don't say <b>choqawlu'.</b> You say <b>qaqaw,</b> because
Klingon doesn't have a passive voice, and indefinite subject is
not passive voice, and if you've got an agent and a patient in
Klingon (and no causer), the agent is the subject and the patient
is the object, and that's pretty strict.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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