<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Yep.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’ve been away from this too long. Gotten flabby. Need more exercise...<br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 16, 2021, at 10:36 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/16/2021 10:12 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ECB96FB2-FF14-4DDA-BE02-C1D8DC3B8C23@mac.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Interesting.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I was seeing {QapDI’} functioning as a time stamp,
and as such, like the adverbial, it was one of those things at
the beginning of the main clause. The precise sequence isn’t
strictly defined. I haven’t noticed examples of other stuff,
like time stamps, coming before adverbials, so I was expecting
the adverbial to start the sequence, then the time stamp, then
the main clause, with everything at the start of the sentence
(adverbial and time stamp) applying to the main clause.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Well, remember that "time stamp" is not something explicitly
defined for us. Okrand discusses "time elements" in section 6.7 in
the Addendum, but he seems to be talking about noun phrases that
refer to times, not every phrase that refers to a time.<br class="">
</p><p class="">It's perfectly clear that you can have expressions of time in
places other than the beginning. <b class="">cha yIbaH, qara'DI'</b><i class="">
Fire the torpedoes at my command!</i> Subordinate clauses are
allowed to follow independent clauses, even when they express
times. If <i class="">when I see you</i> is not time-like enough for you,
I could also say <b class="">cha yIbaH</b><b class="">, wa'logh Qoylu'pu'DI'</b><i class="">
Fire the torpedoes at one o'clock!</i></p><p class="">Actual time elements of the kind described in TKD are apparently
also part of the clause to which they are attached, as they
"precede the adverbial."</p><p class="">In theory, and for the moment ignoring copulas, comparatives, and
superlatives, the complete clause structure of Klingon appears to
be:</p><p class=""><time elements> <adverbials and syntactic noun
phrases> <object> <verb> <subject></p><p class="">When dealing with multiple independent, purpose, or subordinate
clauses, you apparently shove complete clauses next to each other;
you don't splice clauses inside other clauses.</p><p class="">This is not a rule that Okrand has stated; it appears to be the
case based on canon. Some people are less strict about it than
others. Qa'yIn, for instance, likes to splice in parenthetical
phrases. He might write something like <b class="">DaHjaj, jISoptaHvIS,
vIghro' vIyach.</b> What he means is to combine the independent
clause <b class="">DaHjaj vIghro' vIyach</b><i class=""> Today I pet a cat</i> and
<b class="">jISoptaHvIS</b><i class=""> while I was eating.</i> Personally, I would
resist splicing clauses like this, and I would move the
subordinate clause to the end: <b class="">DaHjaj vIgho' vIyach,
jISoptaHvIS.</b> But we have no information on what Klingons
would have to say about splices like this, other than a general
lack of it.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ECB96FB2-FF14-4DDA-BE02-C1D8DC3B8C23@mac.com" class="">So, if
{ghaytanHa’ QapDI’} is a dependent clause… “Unlikely, when he
wins” becomes the time stamp for {SuvtaH}.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And I become confused. It sounds more like
“Unlikely, when he wins, he continues fighting.” So, he probably
doesn’t continue fighting when he wins. So, I guess he quits
fighting when he wins, right?</div>
</blockquote><p class="">You're still doing the parenthetical insertion in your English
thinking, applying the <i class="">unlikely</i> to the <i class="">he continues
fighting</i> instead of the <i class="">he wins.</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ECB96FB2-FF14-4DDA-BE02-C1D8DC3B8C23@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">I don’t really see that as “When he unlikely wins…”
and even less as “When he is unlikely to win…” Sorry. I just
don’t see that. I could chop it up in a word salad and toss it
into the air and pick out that meaning, if I really, really
wanted to, but I can’t see it simply meaning that.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Let’s drop the {-Ha’} just to make it simpler.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">{ghaytan QapDI’} “Likely, when he wins…” is not the
same as “When he likely wins…” and I’m pretty sure the the
former is the more typical interpretation.</div>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p><p class=""><b class="">nom Sop</b><i class=""> He eats quickly.<br class="">
</i><b class="">nom SopDI'</b><i class=""> He eats quickly, and when that happens...</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><b class="">ghaytan Qap</b><i class=""> He is likely to win.<br class="">
</i><b class="">ghaytan QapDI'</b> <i class="">He is likely to win, and when that
happens...</i><br class="">
</p><p class="">Adding <b class="">-DI'</b> just means <i class="">and when the sentence that I'm
attached to happens...</i></p><p class="">You just have to step away from the way English phrases things
and see the meaning only in the Klingon that appears.<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>