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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/20/2021 7:53 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CAP7F2cJGqnUo80KddZNh5Re71ULBbxC6iKtQJMERJj0K5=FDLQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">SuStel:<br>
> The rule is stated in TKD: "Similarly, with verbs of saying
(say, tell, ask, etc.),<br>
> 'e' and net are not used. The two phrases simply follow
one another, in either order."<br>
<br>
Ok, wait. Does that rule concern too cases, where the purpose of
the speaker isn't to actually quote something?<br>
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<p>I know where you're going with this, and you're on the wrong
track.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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cite="mid:CAP7F2cJGqnUo80KddZNh5Re71ULBbxC6iKtQJMERJj0K5=FDLQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">When we say "quotation" what do we actually mean?
The way I understand it, if there's: {yaDDa yaDDa yaDDa,
jIjatlhpu'}, then the quotation is *only* the {yaDDa yaDDa
yaDDa}. The quotation isn't the {jIjatlhpu'} (which I don't know
what it actually is..).<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This is correct. A quotation is the exact words someone says. The
<b>jIjatlhpu'</b> is a "verb of saying."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
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cite="mid:CAP7F2cJGqnUo80KddZNh5Re71ULBbxC6iKtQJMERJj0K5=FDLQ@mail.gmail.com">
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So, in the {< nucholpu' jaghpu' > jIjatlhpu' HoDvaD 'e'
yIjatlh}, no rules are broken, because the object of the sao
isn't the quotation, but only the {jIjatlhpu'}.<br>
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</blockquote>
<p>And here's the problem: all the evidence points to the fact that
you cannot describe the content of a quotation indirectly in
Klingon. You're trying to do this.</p>
<p>Okrand, for instance, has told us that the object of <b>jatlh</b>
must be the speech event. For instance, you can <b>jatlh</b> a <b>SoQ</b>
or a <b>mu'.</b> A description of the <i>contents</i> of a
speech event is not the same as a word representing a speech
event. That means you can't say things like <b>bImoH 'e' vIjatlh</b>
<i>I say that you are ugly</i> because <b>bImoH</b> is a
representation of the contents of what I say, not a word that
refers to a type of speech event.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJGqnUo80KddZNh5Re71ULBbxC6iKtQJMERJj0K5=FDLQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
Look at it another way..<br>
<br>
Q waved his hand and an officer was rendered unable to talk for
a period of time; then Q's power wears off, and the officer
starts speaking again. So, he says to another member of the
crew:<br>
<br>
jIjatlhqa'pu' HoDvaD 'e' yIja'<br>
tell to the captain that I've spoken again<br>
<br>
There's no quotation here. There are no words to be repeated for
the captain. Similarly, in the {< nucholpu' jaghpu' >
jIjatlhpu' HoDvaD 'e' yIjatlh}, the object is the {jIjatlhpu'}
and the < nucholpu' jaghpu' > is something which happily
just happens to sit by, away from the {'e'}.<br>
<br>
So we're all happy, yes?</div>
</blockquote>
<p>No. There is no evidence that you can use <b>'e'</b> on <b>ja'</b>
by changing the person of the quotation. You can't transform the
quotation to make it a not-quotation, then use it the way you were
told not to use it. If Klingon can do this, Okrand hasn't said so.</p>
<p>For your Q example, all you have to do is this: <b>jIjatlhqa'pu'
HoD yIja'</b><i> Tell the captain I have spoken again.</i>
(Alternatively, <b>HoD yIja' jIjatlhqa'pu'.</b>)</p>
<p>See, for example, how Okrand handles quotations and
non-quotations in <i>paq'batlh</i> (and remember that this
explicitly given to us as an English text translated into Klingon,
not an original Klingon text):</p>
<p><i>Kahless tells his brother and father<br>
to go their separate ways,<br>
And travel the lands.</i></p>
<p><b>loDnI'Daj vavDaj je ja' qeylIS<br>
nIteb peghoS<br>
HatlhDaq peghoS</b></p>
<p>Do you see how Okrand has particularly avoided using <b>'e'</b>
and a non-quotation here? He gave us Kahless's exact words, even
though the English original did not.</p>
<p>Whenever using a verb of saying to describe what is said, always
use a quotation, even if you're translating and your original does
not have a quotation. Otherwise you need to find another way of
saying it.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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