<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">My wild guess at why the exceptional {‘e’ neHbe’ vavoy} exists is that the expression is already exceptional, since she’s already using {‘e’} to represent something someone ELSE said.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s probably similar to my own use of uppercase for the word “else” in the previous sentence. She doesn’t want it to be unclear what her dear father did not want, without having to repeat it herself, especially since, if I remember correctly, the {‘e’} is not representing a single sentence, but more like a paragraph. Context makes it clear when someone utters a sentence that they immediately follow with {neHbe’ vav’oy}, all spoken by the same person, but if you just say {neHbe’ vav’oy} as your only utterance, intending to refer back to what the previous speaker said, some may follow you, while others are likely to ask {nuq neHbe’ vavlI’’?}</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Meanwhile, my understanding was that {ja’} could take nouns (in particular people or languages} as objects, but I didn’t remember canon showing it taking quotations as objects. I know it can be used as the speech verb in the sentence pair with a quotation as one sentence and the speech-verb-sentence as the other member of the pair, but grammatically, they are independent. One is not the object of the other. That’s why the order of the two sentences is completely unimportant.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">DuneH HoD. qaja’ta’.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">qaja’ta’. DuneH HoD.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It means, “I told you, ’The captain wants you,’” regardless of what order the sentences are presented. The quotation isn’t the object of {ja’}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I won’t be remarkably surprised if you present canon contrary to this because I know how careful you are and I respect your encyclopedic memory of canon. I’ll just be disappointed in Okrand for yet more problematic canon.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div dir="auto" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div>pItlh</div><div><br class=""></div><div>charghwI’ ‘utlh</div><div>(ghaH, ghaH, -Daj)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 19, 2021, at 9:00 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/19/2021 7:56 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAP7F2cKOXMn0fY5ciUeOKLgtNMoSTBe=cymDw+N40nvHcJPECw@mail.gmail.com" class="">I'm
sorry, SuStel, I've to ask again on this matter, and don't
misunderstand me; I'm not trying to find a way to write nested
quotations. In fact, even if I could use them in klingon I
wouldn't, since the whole "he said that she said that they said.."
gives me a feeling of old grannies gossiping in the village.<br class="">
<br class="">
But it seems that I've stumbled here on something I ignored, so
I'd like to clarify this further.<br class="">
<br class="">
SuStel:<br class="">
> The real question is whether you can say 'e' yIja' tell that.<br class="">
> It seems that the answer is no. Whatever you want to report
about is either a noun or a quotation.<br class="">
jIH:<br class="">
> I'm afraid I can't understand this; doesn't the {'e'} of a
sao serve as a noun?<br class="">
SuStel:<br class="">
> 'e' is a pronoun. It stands in for a sentence, not a noun.
When I said "either a noun or a quotation," I meant exactly that.<br class="">
<br class="">
What I was about to ask next, was this:<br class="">
<br class="">
Ok, but we *can* write {ghaH vIja'pu'} for "I've told him". Isn't
{ghaH} a pronoun too? So why can't we say too {'e' yIja'}?<br class="">
<br class="">
The only explanation which came to mind, was that pronouns such as
{jIH}, {SoH}, {ghaH}, etc can function as nouns too, something
which the {'e'} of a sao can't do. The {jIH}, {SoH}, {ghaH}, etc
are pronouns and can be nouns too, but the {'e'} can only be a
pronoun.</blockquote><p class="">You are mistaking my description of observed canon for a rule.
I'm not saying "the rule is that the object of <b class="">ja'</b> can be
only a noun or a quotation." I'm saying we've only ever seen
actual nouns or actual quotations as the thing <b class="">ja'</b> is
referencing, with no sign of the standard sentence-as-object
construction anywhere in sight.</p><p class="">The <i class="">rule</i> is stated in TKD: "Similarly, with verbs of
saying (<i class="">say, tell, ask,</i> etc.), <b class="">'e'</b> and <b class="">net</b>
are not used. The two phrases simply follow one another, in either
order."</p><p class="">So we have the basic rule, and we haven't seen any exceptions to
the rule. We've seen nouns be the object of <b class="">ja'</b> and we've
seen <b class="">ja'</b> work with quotations.</p><p class=""><b class="">neH</b> has a similar rule, but we've seen an exception to it
in <i class="">Star Trek VI,</i> where Azetbur says <b class="">'e' neHbe' vavoy.</b>
So I'm not about to state that it's impossible that <b class="">ja'</b>
can have an exception to it as well. But we haven't seen this
exception so far, so I'm also not about to state that exceptions
occur.</p><p class="">The bottom line: don't use <b class="">'e'</b> with quotations.<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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