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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/19/2021 1:45 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4CCE8B2F-8C3F-4D6D-9017-BDD1BF533A78@mac.com">My wild
guess at why the exceptional {‘e’ neHbe’ vavoy} exists is that the
expression is already exceptional, since she’s already using {‘e’}
to represent something someone ELSE said.</blockquote>
<p>I agree that that's the most likely explanation. You have to hang
the <b>neH</b> on <i>something.</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4CCE8B2F-8C3F-4D6D-9017-BDD1BF533A78@mac.com">Meanwhile,
my understanding was that {ja’} could take nouns (in particular
people or languages} as objects, but I didn’t remember canon
showing it taking quotations as objects.</blockquote>
<p>No, it doesn't take quotations as objects, I said it references
quotations — that is, it can be used as a "verb of speaking." This
is described in the "sentence as object" section of TKD, but
quotations are not described as objects.<br>
</p>
<p>The canon shows us that it can take the addressee as its object,
e.g.: <br>
</p>
<p><b>loDnI'Daj vavDaj je ja' qeylIS<br>
nIteb peghoS<br>
HatlhDaq peleng</b></p>
<p><i>Kahless tells his brother and father<br>
to go their separate ways,<br>
And travel the lands.</i> (paq'batlh)</p>
<p>The canon also shows us that it can take a noun describing the
matter spoken about, e.g.:</p>
<p><b>wIj jup<br>
SengmeywIj vIja'laHbe'<br>
jIHvaD ratlh pagh<br>
</b></p>
<p><i>Dear old friend,<br>
I cannot speak of my tragedies,<br>
There is nothing left for me.</i></p>
<p>As a side-note, notice that the first example includes both an
addressee object <i>and</i> a quotation. And notice that Okrand
uses a direct quotation to translate non-quotation description of
what was said.</p>
<p>I have deliberately chosen these examples as completely
unambiguous: no wonkiness with prefix tricks or reflexive objects.</p>
<p>I believe these sentences illustrate how the Klingon syntactic
role of "object" can be played by a word with the semantic role of
"direct object" or a word with the semantic role of "indirect
object" (or, very crudely and not-comprehensively stated,
"patient" and "recipient").<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4CCE8B2F-8C3F-4D6D-9017-BDD1BF533A78@mac.com"> I know it
can be used as the speech verb in the sentence pair with a
quotation as one sentence and the speech-verb-sentence as the
other member of the pair, but grammatically, they are independent.
One is not the object of the other. That’s why the order of the
two sentences is completely unimportant.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">DuneH HoD. qaja’ta’.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">qaja’ta’. DuneH HoD.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It means, “I told you, ’The captain wants you,’”
regardless of what order the sentences are presented. The
quotation isn’t the object of {ja’}.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>And a better translation, one which fits in with Okrand's own
usage, would be:</p>
<p><b>DuneH HoD qaja'ta'<br>
qaja'ta' DuneH HoD<br>
</b><i>I told you that the captain wanted you.</i></p>
<p>We would more naturally do that without a quotation. Klingon does
it with quotations.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4CCE8B2F-8C3F-4D6D-9017-BDD1BF533A78@mac.com">
<div class="">I won’t be remarkably surprised if you present canon
contrary to this because I know how careful you are and I
respect your encyclopedic memory of canon. I’ll just be
disappointed in Okrand for yet more problematic canon.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't know of any canon of <b>'e' ja',</b> if that's what you
mean. This is what I've been trying to say. Canon shows us the
object can be the addressee (as indirect object) or a description
of the matter spoken of (as direct object), but the actual content
of what is told must be a quotation.</p>
<p>Theoretically, you should be able to formally say things like</p>
<p><b>HoDvaD nuHmey Dotlh ja'pu' ya, Qapbe' nISwI' cha'.<br>
</b><i>The tactical officer told the captain regarding the weapon
status that disruptor number two wasn't working.</i><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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