<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;" dir="ltr">
<div style="">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> Suppose we want to say: "if someone believes
<span style="">gowron</span> is crazy, he's wrong".</span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> </span>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> There are two options:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> </span>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> <span style="">
maw</span>' <span style="">ghawran</span> net <span style="">Harchugh</span>, <span style="">
vaj</span> <span style="">mujlu</span>'.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> </span>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">> <span style="">
maw</span>' <span style="">ghawran</span> net <span style="">Harchugh</span>, <span style="">
vaj</span> <span style="">muj</span> <span style="">vay'vam</span>/<span style="">nuvvam</span>/<span style="">ghotvam</span>/etc.</span></p>
</div>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">Given these two options, I would go with the first; using an indefinite subject and then immediately following it up with a reference to that subject “smells” off to me, even if I can’t
necessarily say that it’s wrong.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">It's like you're actively avoiding talking about a person, but then you have a reference to the person as though you were just talking about them.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">That being said, I would probably not use an indefinite subject here at all; if I intend to refer to the same person twice in quick succession, I would give define them in some way
in the first instance. Most likely, I'd use {vay'}, although something like {nuv} or {ghot} would also work.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">{maw' ghawran 'e' Harchugh vay', vaj muj [nuvvam/ghotvam/].}</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">If you need to be very specific, you can use {HarwI'}.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">//loghaD<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<div style="text-align: center; margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" align="center">
<span style="">
<hr width="98%" size="3" align="center">
</span></div>
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg">
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black" lang="EN-US">
<span style="">tlhIngan-Hol</span> <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of
<span style="">mayqel</span> <span style="">qunen'oS</span> <mihkoun@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 5, 2021 2:04:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <span style="">tlhIngan</span> <span style="">Hol</span> mailing list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [<span style="">tlhIngan</span> <span style="">Hol</span>] subject of the verb which refers to the verb of a net
<span style="">sao</span></span><span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">According to <span style="">tkd</span>: </span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">----------</span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">When the verb of the second sentence has a third-person subject (that is, the pronominal prefix is 0) but the intended meaning is <one> or <someone,> rather than <he, she, it,> or <they,> {net} is used instead of {'e'.}</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">{<span style="">qama'pu</span>' <span style="">DIHoH</span> net
<span style="">Sov</span>} <One knows we kill prisoners.> <span style="">As</span> above, the first sentence here is {<span style="">qama'pu</span>'
<span style="">DIHoH</span>} <We kill prisoners.> The second sentence is {net <span style="">
Sov</span>} <One knows that.> The full construction implies that it is common knowledge that the group to which the speaker belongs kills prisoners. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">{<span style="">Qu'vaD</span> <span style="">lI</span>' net
<span style="">tu'bej</span>} <One certainly finds it useful for the mission.> <span style="">
The</span> first part of this example is {<span style="">Qu'vaD</span> <span style="">
lI</span>'} <It is useful for the mission> ({<span style="">Qu'vaD</span>} <for the mission,> {<span style="">lI</span>'} <it is useful>). The second part is {net
<span style="">tu'bej</span>} <One certainly finds that> or <One certainly observes that.>
<span style="">The</span> full construction might also be translated <One will certainly observe that it is useful to the mission.> Note that although the word <will> makes a more flowing translation, there is nothing in the Klingon sentence indicating future
tense.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">----------</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">Suppose we want to say: "if someone believes <span style="">
gowron</span> is crazy, he's wrong".</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">There are two options:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style=""><span style="" lang="EN-US">maw</span></span><span style="" lang="EN-US">'
<span style="">ghawran</span> net <span style="">Harchugh</span>, <span style="">
vaj</span> <span style="">mujlu</span>'.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style=""><span style="" lang="EN-US">maw</span></span><span style="" lang="EN-US">'
<span style="">ghawran</span> net <span style="">Harchugh</span>, <span style="">
vaj</span> <span style="">muj</span> <span style="">vay'vam</span>/<span style="">nuvvam</span>/<span style="">ghotvam</span>/etc.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US">Which of the two would be the correct choice?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style="">~ <span style="">Dana'an</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">
<span style=""><span style="">remain</span></span><span style=""> <span style="">
klingon</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>