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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2021 10:09 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cLkiojW6Hm=m7omcXNFc==orqBGR9Yf1B2Vqs8ieagm9Q@mail.gmail.com">SuStel:
<div dir="auto">> bIpawpu'DI', qagh vIneH. When you </div>
<div dir="auto">> arrived, I wanted gagh.</div>
<div dir="auto">> I'm describing your arrival as completed: </div>
<div dir="auto">> you're standing before me. I'm describing</div>
<div dir="auto">> my desire without the perfective, because</div>
<div dir="auto">> my desire is not completed when you </div>
<div dir="auto">> arrive.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Ok, I understand this. But let me ask you
something..</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Yesterday, a romulan beams down in my room,
punches me, and then leaves.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Looking back on the event, should I write: {jIHDaq
narghpu'DI', muqIppu'}</div>
<div dir="auto">or should I write {jIHDaq narghpu'DI', muqIp}?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Instinctively, I'd choose to say {jIHDaq
narghpu'DI', muqIppu'} ("as soon as he has appeared he has hit
me"). But I get the impression that this could be understood as
"by the time he appeared he had already hit me", i.e. the
hitting took place before the romulan's arrival.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It depends on whether you are describing being in the middle of
the event or being at a point after the event.</p>
I'm not going to demonstrate with the word <b>qIp</b><i> hit,</i>
because the present, past, and participle forms of <i>hit</i> are
all the same, obscuring the point. I'll use the word <b>legh</b><i>
see </i>(which has past and participle forms <i>saw</i> and <i>seen</i>).<br>
<i></i>
<p>I might be telling you a story and expressing my perspective as
part of that story:</p>
<p><b>jIHDaq narghpu'DI', mulegh.</b><i> As soon as he had appeared
at my location, he sees me.</i> The arrival is a completed event
from this point of view, and the seeing occurs now. I'm not
describing being in the moment <i>after</i> the seeing, so the
seeing is not completed and hence not perfective.</p>
<p>Or I might be giving you a list of events that occurred, and now
we're looking back at them:</p>
<p><b>jIHDaq narghpu'DI', muleghpu'.</b><i> As soon as he had
appeared at my location, he saw me.</i> The arrival is a
completed event that sets the context for the event of seeing,
which from our current viewpoint is also a completed event.</p>
<p>Which one you choose depends on the context in which you are
speaking and the viewpoint which that context demands. Do you want
to put the listener in the middle of the action, or do you want to
report on events at a temporal remove? For any given sentence,
does the verb's activity reach beyond the moment you are
expressing?</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIHDaq narghpu'DI', jIQuch.</b><i> As soon as he had
appeared at my location yesterday, I was happy.</i> Here I would
not use perfective no matter whether it was an in-the-moment
expression or an after-the-fact expression because I'm not
describing an event that is completed in the moment I describe it.
I don't experience a moment of happiness that then ends; I'm
simply describing what my state happened to be when he appeared.
If I want to say that I <i>became</i> happy at that moment, <i>becoming
happy</i> is a momentary action, and we are again back to
deciding whether I'm in the moment or after the fact.</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIHDaq narghpu'DI', jIQuchchoH.</b> I'd use this to put
you in the moment of becoming happy.</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIHDaq narghpu'DI', jIQuchchoHpu'.</b> I'd use this to
report the moment of becoming happy in an after-action kind of
way.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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