<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">In the interest of being less Wagnarian, I just deleted a very long analysis and I’ll resist the temptation to have my humor misinterpreted.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">TKD tells us that comparatives and superlatives have exactly one grammatical form, unique in Klingon grammar. There is no method to make a comparison function as a dependent clause. It’s a sentence. That’s what frustrates English speakers who learn Klingon. We’re used to having comparisons and superlatives be a part of a larger, more complex grammatical structure, but not in Klingon. It’s a sentence.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">After laying out the skeleton of the structure of comparatives and superlatives in TKD, we’ve gotten canon examples that allow us to replace {law’} and {puS} with other pairs of contrasting verbs of quality for poetic or stylistic reasons, though it doesn’t change the meaning. Any of these optional pairs of qualitative verbs could be replaced by {law’} and {puS} with no change in meaning of the sentence.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The other thing that canon has informed us is that you can prepend a comparative sentence with perhaps adverbials or time stamps (since {reH} could be interpreted as an adverbial acting as a kind of time reference) or type-5-suffixed nouns to give you context for the comparison. When I say you are most wonderful, I’m not saying that you, a warrior in the galaxy, are more wonderful than everything. I’m saying that if we restrict this statement to the topic of warriors in the galaxy, you are the most wonderful.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Similarly, at all times, on another person’s face, the fire is hottest. I’m not saying that the fire on another person’s face is hotter than the center of the Sun, which is a subset of {Hoch}. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’m saying that always, on that other guy’s face, the fire is hottest.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">One fire.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Always.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Where?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">On the other guy’s face.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The idea that we’d have a context set up for the first half of a comparative that doesn’t apply to the second half is perhaps overthinking the rather restricted grammar of the comparative. It’s rare that I accuse anyone else of overthinking something, being a compulsive over-thinker, myself, but there you have it.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There simply isn’t anything in canon to suggest scope limits for context provided at the beginning of a comparative unless there is an explicit, contrasting context provided for the second half.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 11, 2021, at 2:14 PM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><p class="">I see a lot of assumptions going on about what this Klingon
sentence — not the English translation — means.</p><p class="">Let's check that by first noting that the
comparative/superlative <i class="">literally</i> means <i class="">A's Q is
many; B's Q is few.</i> It doesn't follow basic sentence
syntax, but that's okay: we're told that comparatives and
superlatives have their own construction.</p><p class=""><b class="">reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS</b></p><p class="">So what is the scope of <b class="">reH?</b> What is the scope of <b class="">latlh
qabDaq?</b></p><p class="">We know that <b class="">latlh qabDaq</b> cannot be attached to <b class="">qul</b>
because a type 5 noun suffix cannot be anywhere in a noun-noun
construction but at the end.</p><p class="">We can suppose both <b class="">reH</b> and <b class="">latlh qabDaq</b> belong
to the space before sentences: <b class="">[reH] [latlh qabDaq] [qul tuj
law' Hoch tuj puS].</b> This would mean <i class="">Fire's hot is
many, and all else's hot is few; this is true always and on
another's face.</i><br class="">
</p><p class="">We might also suppose that the <b class="">reH</b> remains before the
main sentence but that <b class="">latlh qabDaq</b> modifies something
else, and <b class="">qul</b> just gets in the way because of the odd
syntax. It might be attached to <b class="">tuj:</b> <i class="">fire's
hot-on-another's-face is many, and all else's hot is few; this
is always true.</i> Or it might be attached to <b class="">law':</b> <i class="">fire's
hot is many </i><i class=""><i class="">on-another's-face, </i>and all else's
hot is few; this is always true.<br class="">
</i></p><p class="">Given the odd syntax of the comparative/superlative, the
unexplained nature of observed modifiers outside of that
construction, the fairly non-literal nature of the proverb (What
the heck does it MEAN that the fire is hotter on someone else's
face? What fire? Hotter than what? Hotter than another fire?),
and the very fact that Klingon proverbs are prone to containing
grammatical exceptions, I don't see how we can draw any solid
conclusions.</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/11/2021 1:48 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:E8681F6C-2F31-4A15-8421-06A74135519E@mac.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
I completely disagree about the scope of {latlh qabDaq} in the
sentence {latlh qabDaq qul tuj law’ Hoch tuj puS.}
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Look at the superlative part of this sentence. What
does it mean? It means, “The fire is hottest.” This is similar
to the superlative in {SoH Dun law’ Hoch Dun puS}. “You are the
most wonderful.”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Where is the fire hottest? It’s hottest on someone
else’s face.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We aren’t saying “[The fire at someone else’s face]
is hottest.” We are saying “[The fire is hottest] at someone
else’s face.”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We aren’t talking about a bunch of different fires,
and the hottest one is at someone else’s face. We are talking
about ONE fire, and the place where it is hottest is at someone
else’s face.<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class="">
<br class="">
rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 11, 2021, at 10:17 AM, De'vID <<a href="mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 10 Feb
2021 at 18:23, Will Martin <<a href="mailto:willmartin2@mac.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">willmartin2@mac.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">In the canon example {qIbDaq
SuvwI’’e’ SoH Dun law’ Hoch Dun puS}: </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The suffix {-‘e’} lets you know
that everything being said happens with the
filter that you are talking about warriors in
the galaxy. That is what extends the
comparison to both sides of the comparison.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As for warriors in the galaxy, you
are the most wonderful. Maybe there are more
wonderful warriors somewhere else, but the
bounds of this comparison falls within the
topic of the whole sentence, which is warriors
in the galaxy.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is not grammatically similar
to {reH latlh qabDaq qul tuj law’ Hoch tuj
puS}, since there is no {-‘e’} but I’d argue
that it would be normal to interpret the
locative to apply to the entire comparison.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Both of those sentences involve the
suffix {-Daq}. But also, both {-'e'} and {-Daq}
are type-5 noun suffixes. Drop the {SuvwI''e'}
from the first sentence and the {reH} from the
second and the sentences become grammatically
parallel:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">{qIbDaq SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS}</div>
<div class="">{latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj
puS}</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">But in the first sentence, {qIbDaq}
applies to the entire comparison. In the second,
it appears to apply only to the first half. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">My reasoning is that the normal
comparative is dirt simple:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">X [adjectival] law’, Y
[adjectival] puS. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The superlative is similar,
replacing X or Y with {Hoch}.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There are extensions of this
grammatical construction, but each one of them
is a little bit special. The best exceptions
are the least special, requiring the least
mental stretching to interpret.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The simplest is to preface the
entire comparison, as in the two examples
considered up to this point:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">[Context for the comparison that
would appear at the beginning of a normal
sentence] [Comparison].</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Slightly more special would be:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">[Context for the first side of the
comparison] [First side of the comparison]
[Context for the second side of the
comparison] [Second side of the comparison].</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It’s okay to have a sentence that
is that second degree of special, but it’s not
really so common that it is sufficiently
anticipated that if there is no second context
given, one would assume that the context
applied only to the first half.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The whole point of this discussion is
whether or not this is okay. I think it is, but
earlier, others have stated that they think it
isn't. If you think it's okay, I'm not the one you
need to justify this to.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">Consider:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">{juHlIjDaq SoH Sub law’, juHDajDaq
SoH Sub puS.}</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You are bolder at your house than
you are at his house.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I would tentatively accept this as
grammatical, but using grammar which is implied by
canon examples but never explained. IIUC, others
would not accept it and would consider it aberrant
grammar.</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">If I just said:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">{juHlIjDaq SoH Sub law’ ghaH Sub
puS}.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">At your house, you are bolder than
he is.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Why would you expect this example
to mean “You are bolder in your house than he
is [perhaps even outside of your house],”? The
context of the comparison is “in your house”.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I wouldn't expect it to mean that
(without additional context), but I couldn't rule
out this meaning (you're bolder in your house than
he is in general), either. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px;
border-left-style: solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">There is no reason to anticipate
an omitted context for the second half of the
comparison. For that, I would have said:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">{juHlIjDaq SoH Sub law’ Dat ghaH
Sub puS.}</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you give one scope, that
stretches to the whole comparison. If you give
a second scope, then the context has
significant meaning for the comparison,
because it’s really the two contexts that are
being compared.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Does this make sense to you?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Yes, perfectly. But my point is that the sentence {reH
latlh qabDaq qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS} suggests the
scope of the {-Daq} is not necessarily the entire
comparison.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Do you not see that the intended meaning
of this sentence seems to contradict your analysis?
The comparison here is not between just things on
someone else's face, it's between something (a fire)
on someone else's face and everything else
(including outside of someone else's face).<br class="" clear="all">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">De'vID</div>
</div>
</div>
<span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display:
inline !important;" class=""></span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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