<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">majQa’.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">qatlho’. Chojangta’neS.</div><div class=""> <br class=""><div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 17, 2020, at 12:53 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <<a href="mailto:felixm@kth.se" class="">felixm@kth.se</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">> … unless you are commenting on the idea of using {-pu’} on a verb in a clause with {wejHa’} at its head,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">> which seems simple enough that I wonder why it even bears comment.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">I suspect it was included with the question, or just pre-empting possible future questions.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">> In a simple sentence, an adverbial comes before the main verb. If there is a dependent clause,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">> would the adverbial come before the clause it applies to, or would it come before a dependent</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">> clause that precedes the main clause, even if it were meant to apply to the main verb?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">It seems logical that it should be in the same (sub)clause as the action it is modifying, and there is at least some support for this:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{bImejDI', reH betleHlIj yItlhap.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{De' lI' Sovlu'DI', chaq Do'Ha'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">One can also contrast:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{Hoch DaSopbe'chugh, batlh bIHeghbe'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">with<br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{batlhHa' vanglu'taHvIS quv chavbe'lu'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{batlh Heghlu'chugh noDnISbe' vay'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">There's also all the {bIjeghbe'chugh vaj bIHegh.}, where the {vaj} in the main clause is referencing the conditional clause.<br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">I do believe that there have been exceptions, but I can't think of any clear examples.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">An arguable examples of an adverbial modifying more than a single (sub)clause can be seen in:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{DuHIvchugh ghol vaj qaStaHvIS may'vetlh HoSDaq ghob luchel quv ghajbogh tlhInganpu'lI'.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">("If an opponent attacks you, during that battle your Klingons with Honor add INTEGRITY to STRENGTH.")<br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">I don't think the {vaj} here is really modifying {qaStaHvIS may'vetlh} in isolation, but rather the entire sentence that follows. The {vaj} isn't really there to describe the nature of the battle that's occuring; it just helps to break up the sentence into a neat if-then structure.<br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">There's also</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">{DuHIv jagh Dangu'laHbe'bogh, vaj bIwunchoH 'ej bIpujchoH.}</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">where I interpret the {vaj} as applying equally well to both {bIwunchoH} and {bIpujchoH}, but does not need to be repeated; the causal relationship is fresh in the reader's mind, and so the meaning of {vaj} can cross the sentence boundary, whether or not it formally does so according to the grammatical rules governing adverbials.<br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">The way I tend to think of it is that the natural scope of an adverbial is the clause in which it is placed, but because Klingon is not lojban, it can be more fluid than that.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class="">//loghaD<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; word-wrap: break-word; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><hr tabindex="-1" style="display: inline-block; width: 644.828125px;" class=""><div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size: 11pt;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>tlhIngan-Hol <<a href="mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org</a>> on behalf of Will Martin <<a href="mailto:willmartin2@mac.com" class="">willmartin2@mac.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, December 16, 2020 21:48<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" class="">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [tlhIngan Hol] new words qepHom 2020</font><div class=""> </div></div><div class=""><div class="">I’m curious as to how {-pu’} could be used with {wejHa’}, since I’ve never seen it used with any adverbial before. {wejHa’} is not a verb, and so far as I know {-Ha’} is the only verb suffix that can be used (and not universally) on (certain) adverbials (when it produces meaningful results)…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">… unless you are commenting on the idea of using {-pu’} on a verb in a clause with {wejHa’} at its head, which seems simple enough that I wonder why it even bears comment.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Meanwhile, I’m wondering if “I have to leave because it is already dark,” has the potential to be very ambiguous, if you aren’t careful about optional word order. There’s a subtle difference between that English sentence and “I already have to leave because it is dark."</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Instead of spouting off about how it should be done as if I weren’t rusty, I’ll ask.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In a simple sentence, an adverbial comes before the main verb. If there is a dependent clause, would the adverbial come before the clause it applies to, or would it come before a dependent clause that precedes the main clause, even if it were meant to apply to the main verb?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Preferably, give examples of different ways to translate the sentence with {Hurghmo’}, {jItlheDnIS}, and {wejHa’} sequenced in order to give the two clear meanings and the one ambiguous one.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 16, 2020, at 12:10 PM, Jackson Bradley <<a href="mailto:j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com" class="">j.monroe.bradley@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Woo-hoo! New words! jISeyqu'ba'!</div><div dir="ltr" class="">A huge congratulations and thanks to Lieven who put all this together! bIDunqu'!<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Some of what's included in the list this year is vocab I received for a book I recently finished, <i class="">cha' </i><i class="">monmey</i> (<a href="http://klingon.wiki/En/ChaMonmey" target="_blank" class="">http://klingon.wiki/En/ChaMonmey</a>). It's quite lengthy, and so there were a few terms for which I ended up querying Dr. Okrand (and Maltz, of course) in order to make my text as clean as possible.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Most of that info can be found in the qepHom booklet, so I won't be redundant and also post it here. I will, however, post a clarification on the word<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">qal</b> and some more culled comments on<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">wejHa'</b>:</div><div class=""></div><div class=""><table class="" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" style="border-collapse: collapse; border: none;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td class="" width="168" valign="top" style="width: 1.75in; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td><td class="" width="192" valign="top" style="width: 144.35pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td><td class="" width="354" valign="top" style="width: 265.15pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in; text-align: justify;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" width="168" valign="top" style="width: 1.75in; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"></p><ul class=""><li class="" style="margin-left: 15px;"><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">qal</font></span></b><br class=""></li></ul><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></td><td class="" width="192" valign="top" style="width: 144.35pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">be corrupt (v)</font></span></i></div></td><td class="" width="354" valign="top" style="width: 265.15pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">this can be used to describe corrupt people</font></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" width="168" valign="top" style="width: 1.75in; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"></p><div class=""><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><b class=""><br class=""></b></font></div></td><td class="" width="192" valign="top" style="width: 144.35pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td><td class="" width="354" valign="top" style="width: 265.15pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" width="168" valign="top" style="width: 1.75in; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"></p><ul class=""><li class="" style="margin-left: 15px;"><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">wejHa'</font></span></b><br class=""></li></ul><div class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></td><td class="" width="192" valign="top" style="width: 144.35pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">already (adv)</font></span></i></div></td><td class="" width="354" valign="top" style="width: 265.15pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">wejHa'</span></b><span class="" lang="EN-US"> is an adverbial meaning "before now" or "as of now." It doesn't have to be "now" (meaning the time of speaking), of course, so maybe a better (though more awkward) characterization is something like "before or as of a time referenced in the sentence or context."</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">I've already bought food</span></i><span class="" lang="EN-US"> ("already" referencing now, the time of speaking)</span></font></div><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><i class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">By 6:00 p.m., I'd already bought food</span></i><span class="" lang="EN-US"> ("already" referencing a time established in the sentence or context)</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">I suppose "already" is a good short gloss. </font></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">As with "already," I think you'd use <b class="">wejHa'</b> if you intend to explicitly indicate a change of state or change of conditions. For example, "already" in <i class="">I have to leave because it's already dark </i>implies not only that it's dark now, but that the change from light to dark is somehow relevant — it's <i class="">become</i> dark, it's <i class="">no longer</i> not dark (perhaps it got dark sooner than expected or desired or while nobody was paying attention to the time or something like that). The sentence means more than just "I have to leave because it is dark now."</font></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">But <b class="">wejHa'</b> doesn't totally match up with English "already." <b class="">wejHa'</b> does not carry the connotation of impatience or exasperation expressed by "already" in <i class="">Stop already with the fidgeting.</i></font></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><b class=""><span class="" lang="EN-US">wejHa'</span></b><span class="" lang="EN-US"> and <b class="">-pu'</b> can be (but don't have to be) used together. And it's subtle.</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"> </font></span></p></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" width="168" valign="top" style="width: 1.75in; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in;"></p><div class=""><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><b class=""><br class=""></b></font></div></td><td class="" width="192" valign="top" style="width: 144.35pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td><td class="" width="354" valign="top" style="width: 265.15pt; padding: 0in 5.4pt;"></td></tr></tbody></table><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><br class=""></div><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><span class="" lang="EN-US"><i class=""><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif"><br class=""></font></i></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">rIn.</font></div><div class="" style="margin: 0in;"><font class="" face="arial, sans-serif">-DeSDu'</font></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer. 16 déc. 2020, à 07 h 53, Lieven L. Litaer <<a href="mailto:levinius@gmx.de" class="">levinius@gmx.de</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">Am 16.12.2020 um 13:46 schrieb Jeremy Silver:<br class="">> I notice this word lurking in the *Clarifications and additions* section on<br class="">> the wiki page:<br class="">><br class="">> ghaS ("indicate, signal")<br class="">><br class="">> Is this a brand new word that needs to be in the main list?<br class=""><br class="">Yes, indeed. Thanks for noticing. I'll fix that immediately.<br class=""><br class="">--<br class="">Lieven L. Litaer<br class="">aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"<br class=""><a href="http://www.tlhinganhol.com/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://www.tlhInganHol.com</a><br class=""><a href="http://klingon.wiki/En/NewWordsQepHom2020" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://klingon.wiki/En/NewWordsQepHom2020</a><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" target="_blank" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br class=""></blockquote></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>