<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Any time you transliterate between languages, you have to follow the pronunciation rules of the target language. Since certain consonant or vowel combinations are illegal in one language and common in another, transliteration often involves either dropping something or adding something. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You have to decide which sounds closer to the original: {DItroy’} or {DItroyte’}, since the {y} mimics one of the “i” sounds in English, but counts as a consonant in the rules of Klingon phonetics for legal syllables, and Klingon doesn’t allow two vowels to be without an intervening consonant. I guess he might have also considered {DItro’It}, though the {I} is like the eye in “his” while the {y} is like the “e” in “creek”, which is closer to the eye in "Detroit”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, I guess he also might have considered {DItroyIt} or {DItroyet}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Still, given all the options, {DItroy’} sounds closer to “Detroit” than any other legal Klingon pronunciation because {Detroy’} is a two syllable word and all the others are three syllables, and the only way to make “Detroit” three syllables is to HEAVILY aspirate after the “t”, which SuStel was quite proper to point out, doesn’t sound right, unless you are drunk and trying really hard to not slur.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 12, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Steven Boozer <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" class="">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">When I saw {DItroy’} I thought Okrand was attempting to render the French pronunciation – sort of! - or perhaps an odd mix of French and English. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pontchartrain_du_D%C3%A9troit" title="Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit</a>was originally a French fort founded in 1701. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">Or not wanting to add an extra vowel he could also have simply dropped the final consonant, such as {'entepray'} Enterprise, {lIHtentay’} Liechtenstein and {‘oSteray’} Österreich. He routinely does this with Terran names ending in –land: {DoyIchlan} Deutschland, {ne'Derlan} Netherlands, {'Inglan} England, {<a href="http://www.klingonwiki.net/bin/view/Word/SIkotlan" title="Create this topic" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">SIqotlan</a>} Scotland, {nu'SIylan} New Zealand and {‘ISlan} Iceland.<br class=""><br class="">__<br class="">Voragh<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">_________________________________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>nIqolay Q<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 12, 2020<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 2:23 PM SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">On 10/12/2020 2:04 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:45 AM Steven Boozer <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;">Thanks for the source. I was perusing the qep'a' 2020 new words list over the weekend and discovered another one {DItroy'} Detroit.<o:p class=""></o:p></p></blockquote><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><o:p class=""> </o:p></p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 4pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;"><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Interesting example of using a glottal stop to transliterate a "t" in a syllable that otherwise already ends in a consonant.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">The final<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">t</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Detroit</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is not aspirated the way a Klingon<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">t</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>always is. A glottal stop is actually closer in sound to the unaspirated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">t.</i><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Aspiration doesn't seem to play much of a role in transliterations. In the case of "Detroit", you can't just transliterate the final syllable as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">-oyt</b>, because -<b class="">oyt</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>isn't an allowed syllable ending in Klingon phonotactics. Sometimes, Okrand deals with this (consonant after diphthong) by adding another syllable: "Deutsch" (in "Deutschland") -><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">*Doych</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>-><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">DoyIch</b>. But in this case, since<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">'</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is similar to "t", and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">-oy'</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is an allowed Klingon syllable ending, you can just do that.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>