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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/1/2020 2:25 PM, Luis Chaparro
Caballero wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-7105624e-8f4c-46b2-a00f-f0fa2fb0ad5f-1601576752100@3c-app-webde-bap03">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi,
I've been thinking about the example SuStel gave to me in order to explain how SAOs should be understood as one singular idea.
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">You should think of sentence-as-object constructions as if they were single ideas. A Klingon who says *paq Daje'pu' 'e' vISov* isn't saying two separate
things; it's just one idea. Consider the sentence *romuluSngan HoHpu' tlhIngan 'e' vIleghbe'*/I didn't see the Klingon kill the Romulan./ The idea here
isn't that the Klingon killed the Romulan AND that I saw it. We don't know if the Klingon actually killed the Romulan; all we know is that I didn't see
any such act. It's one idea.
</pre>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
If we want it to be two different ideas, that is, an assertion about a fact AND an assertion about my perception, then we need something like a conjunction, right? *... 'ach 'e' vIleghbe'*.</pre>
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<p>This is a controversial idea. I don't think a conjunction is a
magic element that transforms an SAO into two ideas. I think it's
context that will tell you whether you've got one idea or two.</p>
<p>When you state</p>
<p> <b>S 'e' V</b></p>
<p>S isn't automatically an indicative statement on its own. In <b>romuluSngan
HoHpu' tlhIngan 'e' vIleghbe'</b><i> I didn't see the Klingon
kill the Romulan,</i> we are not necessarily making the claim
that <b>romuluSngan HoHpu' tlhIngan</b><i> the Klingon killed the
Romulan</i>.<i> </i>Maybe it's true, but our full statement
isn't saying that. Maybe the Klingon didn't kill the Romulan, and
that's why we didn't see the Klingon kill the Romulan.</p>
<p>So how can you tell whether the first sentence of the SAO is
meant to be indicative or subjunctive? Context. If the captain
tells me that a Klingon on the planet surface killed a Romulan
while I was down there then asks me to describe the battle, I
might say <b>romuluSngan HoHpu' tlhIngan 'e' vIleghbe'.</b> We
know the first sentence of the construction is true, and it's also
true that I didn't see the killing.</p>
<p>Maybe saying <b>'ach 'e'...</b> or <b>'ej 'e'...</b> or
whatever might be valid. I'm pretty sure we haven't see any such
thing in canon. I wouldn't object to it if there were no obvious
alternatives. There usually are. Let us suppose I witnessed the
battle, but the captain hasn't heard what happened. I might say <b>romuluSngan
HoHpu' tlhIngan. may' vIleghpu'.</b><i> The Klingon killed the
Romulan. I saw the battle.</i> Now we are unambiguously saying
two separate things, and we are not risking using controversial
grammar.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:trinity-7105624e-8f4c-46b2-a00f-f0fa2fb0ad5f-1601576752100@3c-app-webde-bap03">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">But if we say in Klingon:
*Huch nIHpu'. 'e' vIlegh.*
since punctuation or a pause when we're speaking makes no difference, the meaning of this sentence is always: „I saw that he stole the money“.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>And you can avoid the problem by using a noun instead of the
pronoun.<b> Huch nIHpu'. wanI' vIleghpu'.</b><i> He stole the
money. I saw it happen.</i></p>
<p>Klingon is not very careful about designating exactly what is a
complete sentence and what isn't. Often concepts just get jammed
together, and it's considered grammatical. Each of the three forms
of sentence-as-object are examples, and there are other examples
in canon of words being used in rapid succession to complete an
idea. Don't worry so much about punctuation, just use it to
clearly show which words belong to which clauses. If you've got
two separate ideas, try not to jam both of them into a
sentence-as-object construction. Don't just translate words,
translate concepts.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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