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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/28/2020 12:11 PM, Luis Chaparro
Caballero wrote:
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">When you explicitly use a pronoun, you're making it clear that that's
the pronoun you have in mind, or you're speaking extra-clearly to make
sure you've been heard. If I say *HoD Duj vIlegh*/I see the captain's
ship/ and then follow it up with *vIghov,* am I saying I recognize the
captain or the ship? I can clarify by explicitly using a pronoun: *ghaH
vIghov*/I recognize him/her/ or *'oH vIghov*/I recognize it./
Here the prefix makes the sentence clear. Why do we use "jIH" here if its not for emphasis?
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I understand we can use the pronouns in order to make an ambiguous sentence clear. But in TKD we see this example:
yaS vIlegh jIH
Here the prefix makes the sentence clear. Why are we using "jIH"? Is that what you mean when you say "speaking extra-clearly to make sure you've been heard"?</pre>
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<p>"Pronouns may be used as nouns, but only for emphasis or added
clarity. They are not required."<b></b></p>
<p>TKD shows us the example <b>yaS vIlegh jIH</b> but points out
that it is identical in meaning to <b>yaS vIlegh.</b> Both are
grammatical, but the former would only be used in normal speech
for emphasis or clarity. An example in a book of grammar is not
normal speech, it is being instructive.<br>
<b></b></p>
<p><br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">3. And what if the first sentence is intended to be the subject of the second one? paq Daje'pu'. QaQ.
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I would assume that the elided subject of *QaQ* is *paq.* You cannot
have a sentence act as subject. This pair of sentences cannot mean /Your
buying the book was good./
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">So if I want to say something like "It's good that you have bought the book" or "Your buying the book is good" and avoid that people understand "the book is good", then I need a noun, since a sentence cannot be the subject of another sentence, right? So maybe:
paq Daje'pu'. QaQ wanI'vam.</pre>
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<p>Yes, something like this.</p>
<p>Pronouns can and usually should be dropped when they're acting as
nouns, but nouns shouldn't be turned into pronouns unless you've
already made clear what the pronoun is. For instance:</p>
<p><b>HoD vIlegh. vIHoH.<br>
</b></p>
<p>The object of <b>vIHoH</b> has to be <b>ghaH, 'oH, chaH,</b> or
<b>bIH.</b> The previous sentence has <b>HoD</b> as the object,
and anyone reading or hearing this would (rightly) assume that
whatever pronoun it is must be referring to the only obvious noun,
<b>HoD.</b> So the dropped pronoun is <b>ghaH,</b> and since
everything is so clear, there's no need to use it.</p>
<p><b>tlhIngan HoHpu' romuluSngan. vImuS.</b></p>
<p>In this case, it's completely obvious that the dropped pronoun is
<b>ghaH,</b> but that's not helpful since you can't make out
whether I hate the Klingon or the Romulan. Which one does the
elided <b>ghaH</b> refer to? This is a case where you shouldn't
have turned the object noun into a pronoun in the first place.</p>
<p><b>tlhIngan luHoHpu' DenIb qatlh. vIHo'.</b></p>
<p>In this case, is the object of <b>vIHo'</b> <b>ghaH</b> (the
Klingon) or <b>bIH</b> (the Denebian slime devils)? The sentence
doesn't make this clear. The pronoun should not have been dropped.
But if I say <b>ghaH vIHo'</b><i> I admired him,</i> you don't
need the full noun <b>tlhIngan</b> to understand what the object
is, but you <i>do</i> need the pronoun to know which one I
admire.<br>
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<p><br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">You're on the right track. I'd probably use *wanI'* for this: *bIlaDtaH.
QaQ wanI'vam'e'.*/You are reading. THAT (and not something else) is
good./ But these are definitely two separate sentences in Klingon.
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And if I want to put emphasis, then I use "-'e'":
paq Daje'pu'. QaQ wanI'vam'e'.</pre>
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<p>"You bought the book. THIS EVENT (not some other event) was good.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
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But then I'm not sure if I understand the sentence in "Star Trek Discovery":
tlhIngan maH. taHjaj.
Isn't the subject of "taHjaj" the sentence "tlhIngan maH"? Something like: "It may endure, that we are Klingons", or "Our being Klingons may endure"? What is otherwise the subject of "taHjaj"? Shouldn't we use here some sort of noun, like in "paq Daje'pu'. QaQ wanI'vam." I'm probably missing something important, sorry!
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<p>This sentence is not canonical Klingon — Okrand didn't write or
approve it — so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've heard Qov
explain her thinking behind it, but I can't quite remember what
she said about it. I'm pretty sure she said it wasn't meant to be
interpreted as a sentence-as-subject. The sentence is also meant
to be a slogan, not formally grammatical Klingon. I don't think
it's even meant to be considered as two completely separate
sentences. We don't even know for sure what the elided subject
actually is. Is this Clipped Klingon? So many questions...<br>
</p>
<p>This was my speculation on it in that thread: <a
href="http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-February/007284.html">http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/2018-February/007284.html</a></p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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