<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Thanks for the clarification. The original post in this thread did not provide sufficient context to know that the agent/subject directs the object to face the location of another noun, such that a steersman faces/orients a ship to the location of a person/place/thing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In that case, if the agent is both the one doing the steering and the thing being steered, the reflexive {-‘egh} would be quite naturally appropriate. {-chuq} would, indeed, be… special.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Two different agents would be directing one entity to face the location of the other of two agents…?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Two different agents would cause each other to direct one entity to face the location of a person/place/thing? Like all those noir films with two people fighting over a pistol until someone gets shot, or two people fighting over a steering wheel until the car crashes?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Two different agents cause two different objects to orient themselves to the location of the other agent or the other object?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">jIwuQchoH…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This, of course, makes the mirror and time travel examples more complicated, since there is no noun for “self”.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:06 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/18/2020 10:19 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CDCF39F5-D9C6-470E-A9C5-EC1B28DE9DD8@mac.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">vIchup:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">julDaq Qeq Duj.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The ship faces the Sun.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Qeqchuq Duj.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The ships face each other.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">No. Okrand was very specific. The object is the entity which is
being oriented toward the locative. The subject causes this
orientation.</p><p class=""><i class="">The ship faces the sun.<br class="">
</i></p><p class="">If you just want to report the ship's orientation (e.g., the ship
is currently facing the sun), then you either have to bring in a
new subject, use a reflexive one, or use an indefinite one:</p><div class="">
<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=""><b class="">julDaq Duj Qeqpu' DeghwI'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The helmsman faced the ship toward the sun.</i></p><p class=""><b class="">julDaq Qeqpu''egh Duj<br class="">
</b><i class="">The ship faced itself toward the sun.</i></p><p class=""><b class="">julDaq Duj Qeqlu'pu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The ship has been faced toward the sun.</i></p><p class="">I used perfective here because to describe the ship currently
facing the sun, it's logical that the action that caused this
orientation is finished.</p><p class=""><i class="">The ships face each other.</i></p><p class="">This is non-trivial to translate into Klingon, since we don't
have reflexive locatives.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><b class="">tlhIngan DujDaq DIvI' Duj Qeqlu'pu' 'ej DIvI' DujDaq tlhIngan
Duj Qeqlu'pu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The Klingon and Federation ships face each other.</i><br class="">
</p><p class="">Variations, etc.</p><p class="">You might get away with something like</p><p class=""><b class="">DujmeyDaq Dujmey luQeqlu'pu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The ships face the ships.</i></p><p class=""><i class=""></i><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CDCF39F5-D9C6-470E-A9C5-EC1B28DE9DD8@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">SIla’Daq Qeq’egh HoD.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The captain faced himself in the mirror. He didn’t
merely face the mirror. He wasn’t standing off to the side,
looking at someone else in the mirror. He faced himself in the
mirror.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">This sentence means that the captain stood in such a position
that he was oriented toward the mirror. Literally it means <i class="">The
captain aimed himself toward the mirror.</i> Remember, <b class="">Qeq</b>
meaning <i class="">face</i> is just a generalization of the idea of
aiming. The syntax remains the same.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CDCF39F5-D9C6-470E-A9C5-EC1B28DE9DD8@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">We can’t get too hung up trying to make prepositions
in English directly match a literal translation of Klingon.
These glosses and verbal guidelines are primarily intended to
explain how a word conveys meaning and works grammatically in
Klingon.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">No indeed, but we do have to pay attention when Okrand explicitly
tells us the grammar of a word, and he has done so here.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CDCF39F5-D9C6-470E-A9C5-EC1B28DE9DD8@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">If {Qeq} has what English would consider a direct
object as in “The ship faces the Sun,” or a prepositional object
“The ship orients itself toward the Sun”, that noun requires
{-Daq} in Klingon.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Don't try to turn this into a formula. It's bound to get messed
up in the more complex grammar of English <i class="">face.</i> In
English, the object of <i class="">face</i> can be both the target of
orientation (<i class="">I face the sun;</i> I stand orientated toward the
sun) and the entity that is oriented (<i class="">I face the captain toward
the sun;</i> I turn the captain so that he is oriented toward
the sun). Klingon <b class="">Qeq</b> corresponds to the latter, not the
former.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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