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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/28/2020 10:16 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B88DA108-9735-41C4-8BE4-F9A9D6B2A133@mac.com">
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<div class="">To offer a slightly more specific critique: A
relative clause is not a sentence. It’s a noun phrase. As such,
it can’t be the second sentence in a Sentence As Object (SAO)
construction.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I specifically did not give this response because it doesn't hold
up given other areas of Klingon grammar.</p>
<p>More than once we've learned that where Okrand says <i>sentence</i>
he really means <i>verbal clause. </i>He says that conjunctions
join sentences, but he also uses them between dependent verbal
clauses a lot. He says that subjects and objects go on sentences,
but they also go on dependent verbal clauses of all types.</p>
<p>Furthermore, Okrand himself has used <b>'e'</b> as the object of
a non-sentence, in <i>paq'batlh:</i></p>
<p><b>qeylIS Qaw' 'e' nIDmeH<br>
yerDaj weH molor<br>
'ej juH qachDaj meQmoH<br>
</b></p>
<p><i>Molor did not destroy Kahless<br>
By burning his house<br>
Or ravaging his lands.</i></p>
<p>(The translation is not literal. The next line starts "Instead,
by doing so..." meaning the emphasis should be that Molor <i>tried</i>
to destroy Kahless by raiding and burning.)</p>
<p>This stanza has a sentence-as-object construction, <b>qeylIS
Qaw' 'e' nIDmeH,</b> in which the second "sentence" is a purpose
clause.</p>
<p>Only a few lines later there's another one:</p>
<p><b>Hoch qInmoH mu'meyDaj<br>
ghob 'agh 'ej val<br>
yIntaH 'e' luleghmo' chaH mer</b></p>
<p><i>All were bemused by his words,<br>
Wise and full of spirit,<br>
And astonished to see him alive.</i></p>
<p>Here, the sentence-as-object, <b>yIntaH 'e' luleghmo' chaH</b><i>
because they saw that he was still alive,</i> has a subordinate
clause as its second "sentence."</p>
<p>We get still more (I'll give shortened versions):</p>
<p><b>watlh 'Iwraj 'e' lu'aghmo' nuHmey jej</b></p>
<p><b>jatlh 'e' mevDI' qeylIS</b></p>
<p><b>bImej 'e' vIchaw'mo'</b></p>
<p><b>SoHvaD quvwI' qem Hegh 'e' wIvDI' Hegh</b></p>
<p><b>pop Hevchugh quvwI' 'ej 'e' DaqaSmoHchugh<br>
</b>(Simultaneously demonstrates conjoining subordinate clauses!)</p>
<p><b>jatlh 'e' mevDI' nuvpu'</b></p>
<p><b>'qa' qo'Daq paw chaH 'e' maqmeH</b></p>
<p><b>Suv 'e' mevDI'</b></p>
<p>and best of all...</p>
<p><b>veqlarghvo' narghbogh loD<br>
chutDaj bIv 'e' ngIlbogh loD<br>
DaH pongDaj Sov qotar</b></p>
<p><i>Now Kotar has the name<br>
Of the one who eluded Fek'lhr<br>
And dared to defy his rules.</i></p>
<p>...which is an example of the very kind of relative clause that
you said can't happen.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B88DA108-9735-41C4-8BE4-F9A9D6B2A133@mac.com">If it
worked (and it doesn’t), then the word order would have to be (and
keep in mind, this is not grammatically correct but merely a step
closer to being grammatically correct in order to show why the
whole idea doesn’t work):
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Dun [Qap yuQDaj ‘e’ tulbogh nuv].</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This <i>is</i> grammatical and is the correct formation for what
he tried to say.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B88DA108-9735-41C4-8BE4-F9A9D6B2A133@mac.com">
<div class="">It doesn’t work because you can’t have the first
sentence in SAO contained within the second sentence. It’s not a
“Sentence As Object”. It’s a “Sentence As Object Within Another
Sentence”, which is not a valid grammatical construction in
Klingon.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Says who?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B88DA108-9735-41C4-8BE4-F9A9D6B2A133@mac.com">
<div class="">In general, a Type 9 suffix on either main verb in
SAO should set off alarms, since the addition of Type 9 suffix
turns the verb into something functionally different from a main
verb, and SAO requires two main verbs.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Nope.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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