<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Well argued.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You’ve convinced me that my previous view was in error. Thanks.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The continued, unresolved issue is that the TKD description of {o} doesn’t match the lion’s share of Okrand’s actual pronunciation in his recordings, which memorably don’t include any glide, and that there is no TKD description that accurately matches the {o} sound that he usually uses (or maybe always uses).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I guess I found it refreshing that Klingon might have had one more alien reminder that English does something that English speakers don’t realize they are doing, like the glottal stop before all syllables we spell starting with a vowel. It’s a cool idea for an amateur like myself with linguistic interests. I’m content to accept that either of the two possible pronunciations of {o} are probably okay, and it’s okay for me to prefer the non-gliding {o}, even if it’s not okay for me to wag my finger at people who use the glided “o”. I can deal with that. I’ve wagged enough fingers for enough years to recognize that in some areas, I really should cut it out. This can be one of those, even if, to my ear, a glided “o” sounds like Klingon with an American accent.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">tomayto, tomahto.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The glided version described in TKD is apparently not wrong, even if it’s something Okrand himself doesn’t generally do. One would presume that doing what Okrand actually does also would not be overtly wrong.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Meanwhile, I have a vague memory of previously believing that the {r} should be lightly trilled, but you corrected me, pointing out that TKD said it wasn’t trilled. I don’t have my TKD at hand now, so I can’t check. Now, you suggest that Okrand was wrong when he pronounced {rgh} because he doesn’t trill the {r}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I still trill it, myself, except for {rgh}, but that’s MY problem.</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 29, 2020, at 7:49 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/28/2020 11:04 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3CDDBE50-94A2-435A-A2DA-F09AA8453E8D@mac.com" class="">The issue
at hand is whether Okrand wrote that description accurately,
intending it to be pronounced as the glide between two sounds that
a linguist would recognize in a typical American pronunciation of
the word “oh” that rhymes with “mow”, or if he was merely making
sure that you would never use the “o” sound in “pot”, which is the
Klingon {a} sound. <br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">No, the issue at hand is that TKD says <b class="">ow</b> is
indistinguishable from <b class="">o</b> and <b class="">uw</b> is
indistinguishable from <b class="">u,</b> but <b class="">aw, ew,</b> and <b class="">Iw</b>
are said to be different from <b class="">a, e,</b> and <b class="">w,</b> and are
described as diphthongs, even if that word isn't used.</p><p class="">Maybe <b class="">o</b> and <b class="">ow</b> are a single phoneme in Klingon —
they don't distinguish between the monophthong and diphthong
vowels. Maybe word-final <b class="">o</b> is different from word-internal
<b class="">o.</b> Maybe the text of TKD is just plain wrong and Klingons
would pronounce <b class="">no</b> exactly the same way you say it in
Italian, [o]. Maybe <b class="">o</b> is always a diphthong and Okrand
just mispronounces it sometimes.</p><p class="">I don't know what the correct answer is. I just know that it's
not as simple as "Klingon <b class="">o</b> is [o]. End of story." If
Klingon <b class="">o</b> is just [o], the text of TKD must be explained
in that context.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3CDDBE50-94A2-435A-A2DA-F09AA8453E8D@mac.com" class="">
<div class="">Meanwhile, in recordings of Okrand speaking Klingon,</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Which, some have argued, he pronounces with an American accent.
For instance, he uses an untrilled <b class="">r</b> when he says <b class="">rgh,</b>
which isn't described in the dictionary. He has himself said he
doesn't necessarily follow his own instructions in pronunciation.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3CDDBE50-94A2-435A-A2DA-F09AA8453E8D@mac.com" class="">
<div class=""> there is no second vowel sound in {o}.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Except sometimes there is.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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