<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I respectfully disagree. I think the longer term we are using here really is a form of apposition.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’d read this difference as: “water bottle” {bIQ bal} is the normal construction genitive construction because this is a general type of thing in common life experience, (it’s the water’s bottle, or the bottle of water) but I might say, “radio transmitter, the device” {wab labwI’ jan} vs. “radio transmitter, the person” {wab labwI’ nuv}. He wouldn’t tell us to use a comma simply because he doesn’t ever talk about punctuation, since the Klingon language that Maltz reveals to us is a spoken language and we write it down phonetically. As humans writing Klingon, we may create conventions for punctuation, but Okrand doesn’t want to talk about that because that’s not what he’s focussed on.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is no comma in the Klingon version of “Kahless, the Unforgettable”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I see {wab labwI’ jan} as a form of apposition, since it’s two nouns (or noun phrases) referring to the same entity, but describing it differently. It’s a radio transmitter, and it’s a device, or he’s a radio transmitter and he’s a person, much like we would say, “My next door neighbor, the plumber.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s not really that “the plumber" DESCRIBES my next door neighbor. My next door neighbor and the plumber are the same entity, but by naming that entity two ways, I present a more specific identity. I may have multiple next door neighbors. I may have multiple plumbers, but only one entity is both my next door neighbor AND a plumber.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are lots of radio transmitters and lots of devices… The thing I’m talking about is both.</div><br class=""><div class="">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 22, 2020, at 8:15 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2020 4:03 AM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class="">Am
21.02.2020 um 18:42 schrieb SuStel:
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">The word is /genitive./ The first noun
[...]
<br class="">
<br class="">
*bIQ bal* /water jug
<br class="">
</blockquote>
[...]
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Apposition, on the other hand, is where
two nouns or noun phrases are
<br class="">
side by side, and one further identifies the other.
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
Okay, I think I understand. But how is the following interpreted
then?
<br class="">
<br class="">
We were told the word {wab labwI'} means "radio". We were also
told that
<br class="">
if it was need to distinguish the broadcaster from the device, you
may
<br class="">
add {jan}.
<br class="">
<br class="">
Expanding this, I could probably say {wab labwI' qach}, {wab
labwI'
<br class="">
malja'}, {wab labwI' loD}... etc.
<br class="">
<br class="">
The second part of this nn-construction might be labeled as
"identifier".
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">In linguistics, the correct word for the second noun would be the
<i class="">head noun.</i><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class="">
I may even accept that it's still a genetive construction, BUT why
is it
<br class="">
turned around?
<br class="">
<br class="">
For instance, in {bIQ bal} the identifier comes first: WATER
bottle
<br class="">
instead of "BEER bottle".
<br class="">
<br class="">
In the phrase {wab labwI' jan}, it's not {wab labwI'} identifiying
the
<br class="">
kind of {jan}, it's the {jan} word which is telling you what kind
of
<br class="">
{wab labwI'} you talk about.</blockquote><p class="">You're confusing how Okrand is describing something and the
grammar behind it. When Okrand says you can distinguish which kind
of <b class="">wab labwI'</b> by adding a word like <b class="">jan,</b> what he
means is you can talk about a different head noun to make the
distinction. Instead of talking about a <i class="">transmitter,</i> which
can be a person or a device the person is using (in English, too),
you can talk about a <i class="">device,</i> which is only one thing. <b class="">wab
labwI' jan</b> is a noun-noun construction in which the genitive
noun (phrase) is <b class="">wab labwI',</b> and the head noun is <b class="">jan.</b>
Okrand is not saying you're adding a genitive noun, and you're
not; he's only giving you a way to clarify that you mean a device
instead of a person.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class=""> In
addition to thins thought, {wab labwI'}
<br class="">
CAN stand alone and still mean the same when context is clear.</blockquote><p class="">More specifically, it can stand alone when the speaker doesn't
need to know whether you're talking about a person sending a
signal or the device used to send that signal.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class=""> If the <br class="">
word {bIQ} stands alone, it is never connected to the idea of a
bottle,
<br class="">
but {bal} is.
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">Because there is no double possibility as to what <b class="">bIQ</b>
means.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class="">
Compare this:
<br class="">
<br class="">
{wab labwI' vIpoQ. wab labwI' jan vIpoQ.}
<br class="">
I need a radio. I mean, a radio DEVICE.
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">As opposed to the person who transmitted sounds, who is also a <b class="">wab
labwI'.</b><br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class="">
{bal vIpoQ. bIQ bal vIpoQ.}
<br class="">
"I need a bottle. I mean, a WATER bottle"
<br class="">
<br class="">
See the difference?
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">In the first sentence, you're changing head nouns to make it
clear what you're talking about. In the second sentence, you're
adding a genitive noun to clarify the sense of the head noun, but
never changing the head noun.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de" class="">
Now this is my serious question:
<br class="">
Where is the difference? And does it have a name?
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">These are two completely different grammatical operations, so
there is no name.<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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